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Old 04-21-2008, 04:38 PM
 
Location: RSM
5,113 posts, read 19,795,406 times
Reputation: 1927

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cre8 View Post
Quoting Benjamin Franklin out of context and applying that to traffic safety is, well, at least funny. I'd prefer to modify the quote in terms of traffic and respect for the rule of law, "give up your regard for the safety of others on the road and you deserve neither freedom nor a license!"

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Finnish traffic laws, which I find infinitely just. Call me an American purist, but I find it an unfair system that imposes less punishment for richer offenders.
it is discriminatory. a crime is worth a single punishment, whether you are rich or poor. do you give a rich murderer the death sentence and a poor one 25 years to life?
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:09 PM
 
Location: In a room above Mr. Charrington's shop
2,916 posts, read 11,092,682 times
Reputation: 1765
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhcompy View Post
it is discriminatory. a crime is worth a single punishment, whether you are rich or poor. do you give a rich murderer the death sentence and a poor one 25 years to life?
We're talking about speeding or similar traffic infractions, not murder, for Heaven's sake. (Though speeding often does lead to loss of life.)

So back to traffic and fines for infractions. How is the punishment the same if one person pays a far higher fine as a percent of his/her ability to pay than another? You could argue that poor people should drive more lawfully than rich people because the former can far less afford the ticket than the latter. But there again, it's a situation where breaking the law is easier and affordable to the rich but not the poor. I fail to see the fairness of that.
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:14 PM
 
4,127 posts, read 5,075,651 times
Reputation: 1621
The LA freeways were a free-for-all long before the "Chips" TV show. You can't put too much stock in TV, new or vintage, it's just entertainment and never has borne much resemblance to reality. Mayberry never existed anywhere. Even the "Brady Bunch" house is a sham. It's actually a single level ranch style house. They added a facade to give it the appearance of a two story for filming. Half the shows you see that are supposed to take place in CA are filmed in Canada. Probably weaker unions up there.

Most of the shows you see depicting CA freeways are just sets out in the desert. I can just imagine the public outrage if they were to close down the 101 for a few days of shooting. There'd be shootings all right.
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:17 PM
 
24 posts, read 137,171 times
Reputation: 38
Absolutely 100% correct you are, gildossantos. I realize the fact that it's not just California but I've been commuting for years now and it's become an "All about me" society, road-wise. One thing's for certain: The vast majority of travelers in California, although they complain about high gas prices, drive speeds which negate any fuel economy they may have originally perceived. These are the same people who complain but from my experience, they all seem to be doing 80 miles an hour all the time. Often times when I'm traveling in the fast lane and get behind someone who seems to think they own it, they'll lope along at a rate much lower than the posted speed limit and when I get the opportunity to pass them they speed up, preventing me from overtaking them. Once the deed has been done and I'm once again behind them, they slow down to their normal lag. These are the "Blockers". And then there are the "Weaponizers". These types enjoy tailgating until you can safely move over so they can pass. They're everywhere at all times so beware. They'll risk not omly their own life but the lives of others. That being said, it must be clarified I only utilize the fast lane if I want to travel equivilent to the flow of traffic in that lane. Once a weaponizer is behind me I'll gladly move over everytime. A big problem in this state are the drivers who don't know how to merge properly. I call them the "Ricky racers". They drive their vehicles like the Thunderbolt Grease Slapper. Racing to the front of the line and, inevitably, impeding the foreward movement of traffic. Which, by the way, is a ticketable offense. And the worse part of all is their failure to use their turn signal, letting everyone know what their intentions are. Here's a bit of education for the impatient merger: Drive at a safe rate of speed while using the blinker. I'll let you in if it's your turn and if you're using the ol' blinker. If yours is the intention of racing to the front of the line, you'll most likely be stuck waiting once you get there. By the way, speaking of turn signals, when was the last time anyone has seen a police officer use theirs? I got a ticket for not using mine years ago, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And if I have my turn signal on and I am patiently awaiting a carefully executed lane change, please let me in. I also have a destination but unlike the majority of Californians, I make sure I leave early enough to maintain patience and follow the rules of the road. Here's a phenomenon which happens frequently: Someone will cut me off, I'll tap the horn in order to avoid disaster and they'll give me the proverbial bird. Never could quite figure that one out. Nevertheless I'll continue to remain patient and observe these modern day outlaws if for the sake of converstion after the fact, alone. One day modern science will labotomize the imbicillious twits and find a common link as to exactly what goes on in the minds of these rude and very dangerous road warriors. Until then we'll all just have to be aware of the fact that they will never improve their behavior. It only gets worse.
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Old 04-22-2008, 08:12 AM
 
Location: RSM
5,113 posts, read 19,795,406 times
Reputation: 1927
Quote:
Originally Posted by cre8 View Post
We're talking about speeding or similar traffic infractions, not murder, for Heaven's sake. (Though speeding often does lead to loss of life.)

So back to traffic and fines for infractions. How is the punishment the same if one person pays a far higher fine as a percent of his/her ability to pay than another? You could argue that poor people should drive more lawfully than rich people because the former can far less afford the ticket than the latter. But there again, it's a situation where breaking the law is easier and affordable to the rich but not the poor. I fail to see the fairness of that.
the fairness is that the law is applied evenly to everyone. its not up to the government(or a judge) to determine who should be charged what for a speeding ticket based on income. hell, income hardly is a measure of true wealth. the lawyer making 100k is also paying off his student loans and may only take home the same as the guy making 50k doing tech support with a 125$ certification. making more money doesnt mean you're more wealthy. the barber ive been going to since i was a child has more "wealth" than me and hes a barber charging 10bux for a haircut. he makes much less than myself paycheck to paycheck, but hes paid off his house, he has a cheap lease on the retail space, etc. he can afford a ticket much easier than i can and he makes 10-20k less than i do. or what about my retired uncle that lives off of dividends and interest? he has no income. should he not pay a fine? income is not a true measure of wealth.

the simplest, most cost effective, and most fair system is the one we have. you break the law, you pay the same price everyone else does.
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Old 04-22-2008, 08:43 AM
 
345 posts, read 468,271 times
Reputation: 141
Default Stating my case

The posts on this thread from the Europeans are insightful. Thanks for posting them.

In my case, I know my health and stress levels improved for the better after leaving Southern California. I have been out of California for years now, and am off some of the medications I took there for respiratory ailments. I spent more time than I care to admit on the 405 (there's the Getty, there goes the Getty). It wasn't just that toxic air quality I escaped, but the constant stress of driving in California traffic (and to a lessor extent struggling to keep up with the pressures of California consumerism and that high cost of living that exemplify the Southern California way of life). Breathing ozone and particulate toxins 24/7 isn't a good thing. Really. Just ask my oncologist who left and suggested I do the same. *Note - I'm a native of the SF South Bay area, so I know about the LA/SF rivalry, but despite the differences, both places share the title as traffic disasters with bad air and large doses of stress. Life is full of trade-offs, you need to choose them wisely. I'm sorry for those of you stuck in California living beyond your means, paying these high prices to fuel those commutes from hell work day in, and work day out. Day after day after day. Very sad. No matter how good the California restaurants, entertainment, locations and shopping may be (if you can afford to enjoy them) - it's just a lifestyle not worth living after a certain point IMO. For the young and strong, yes. Have your fun. Notice that wealthy Californian's have homes out of state? They can get away. Can you afford that choice? I realize some leave California for elsewhere, hate elsewhere and move back. To each their own. It's about choices. If you do relocate out of California, you can always go back and visit - right?

Last edited by Ria Rhodes; 04-22-2008 at 09:09 AM..
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Old 04-23-2008, 01:11 AM
 
Location: In a room above Mr. Charrington's shop
2,916 posts, read 11,092,682 times
Reputation: 1765
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhcompy View Post
the fairness is that the law is applied evenly to everyone. its not up to the government(or a judge) to determine who should be charged what for a speeding ticket based on income. hell, income hardly is a measure of true wealth. the lawyer making 100k is also paying off his student loans and may only take home the same as the guy making 50k doing tech support with a 125$ certification. making more money doesnt mean you're more wealthy. the barber ive been going to since i was a child has more "wealth" than me and hes a barber charging 10bux for a haircut. he makes much less than myself paycheck to paycheck, but hes paid off his house, he has a cheap lease on the retail space, etc. he can afford a ticket much easier than i can and he makes 10-20k less than i do. or what about my retired uncle that lives off of dividends and interest? he has no income. should he not pay a fine? income is not a true measure of wealth.

the simplest, most cost effective, and most fair system is the one we have. you break the law, you pay the same price everyone else does.
Maybe a monetary fine is the wrong approach. I fully agree that everyone who breaks the same traffic law should face the same punitive measures (which is why I support the Finnish law). Maybe instead of paying a fine, restitution could be paid in some other way. I always thought one way to deal with caught speeders is to have them work along the side of the freeway for a few hours. The point of how fast 70, 80, 90 MPH is won't be missed working on the side of the road as a stand-still flesh and blood human. No fine, just learn a lesson in life in terms your infraction. Wouldn't that be punishment "applied evenly..."?
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:44 AM
 
345 posts, read 468,271 times
Reputation: 141
"I always thought one way to deal with caught speeders is to have them work along the side of the freeway for a few hours."

It's a conundrum because it's more a question of who's not speeding? It's the rare bird that dutifully obeys the California (or any other states) speed limits. In a state/country that embraces litigation as much as Californians/Americans, I'd we concerned about having citizens not in the penal system or the transportation department working along busy highways/roads supervised of not. By the way, who's going to pay the people who supervise the side of the road community service sheeple? The California State budget is getting pared to the bone and soon may be on life support, so it's money, money, money that the state really wants.

On a side note, it's ironic that one of the proven ways to reduce/conserve fuel is to lower the posted speed limits, but do you suppose we can slow down the American drivers who wants to go faster, faster, faster not slower, slower, slower? Americans talk, talk, talk about energy conservation these days, but then you see them behind the wheel and you realize that it's just blah, blah, blah as it's everyone else who should conserve - not them.

Last edited by Ria Rhodes; 04-23-2008 at 11:00 AM..
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:46 AM
 
54 posts, read 84,180 times
Reputation: 19
Default Well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
question. just curious if i got on a french forum and posted my opinion of their driving while on a visit how would i be treated.
i speak french.
I think the diversity of the responses would be the same as that of the responses to the opinion I gave in this forum. That is to say from the "yes you're totally right" responses to the "you are an arrogant yankee" responses, via the "it's not that bad, you get used to it" responses.

Of course it will depend on wether you criticize or not what you noticed in France. But I truely think that, whichever the country you live in, there are the same proportions of jerks-who-think-their-country-is-perfect-and-can't-even-heard-the-slightest-criticism, of open-minded people realistic to what is rfight and wrong in their countrt, etc.
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:54 AM
 
54 posts, read 84,180 times
Reputation: 19
Default problem with vocabulary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder View Post
The LA freeways were a free-for-all long before the "Chips" TV show. You can't put too much stock in TV, new or vintage, it's just entertainment and never has borne much resemblance to reality. Mayberry never existed anywhere. Even the "Brady Bunch" house is a sham. It's actually a single level ranch style house. They added a facade to give it the appearance of a two story for filming. Half the shows you see that are supposed to take place in CA are filmed in Canada. Probably weaker unions up there.

Most of the shows you see depicting CA freeways are just sets out in the desert. I can just imagine the public outrage if they were to close down the 101 for a few days of shooting. There'd be shootings all right.
Sorry but what does "free-for-all" mean? Does that mean everybody can do whatever he or she wants (regarding driving habits), like an implicit unsaid autorisation by the authorities to drive as you like?
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