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Old 12-26-2020, 03:08 PM
 
4,307 posts, read 6,225,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer46 View Post
Ca is 34 today and FL 27th, both low per 1M cases


https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/



then deaths CA is 40th and FL is 20th. But Snowbirds are a bit of a problem now due to moving to FL for the winter. Then the average in CA is 36.3 and in FL 41.9 and that makes a difference due to all the retirees moving into FL from the North and surprisingly I am hearing, from CA.
Either way, the numbers are way too high. CA has about 24k deaths, whereas Canada (similar population to CA and also a diverse demographic) is under 15k. The answer isn't a free for all, like many on here wish would happen but tighter restrictions until we're able to reach herd immunity, coupled with increased stimulus to keep the businesses going for the next 6 months or so.

 
Old 12-26-2020, 03:17 PM
 
2,208 posts, read 1,743,709 times
Reputation: 2649
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior101 View Post
Either way, the numbers are way too high. CA has about 24k deaths, whereas Canada (similar population to CA and also a diverse demographic) is under 15k. The answer isn't a free for all, like many on here wish would happen but tighter restrictions until we're able to reach herd immunity, coupled with increased stimulus to keep the businesses going for the next 6 months or so.
I don't disagree. Too many people are ignoring safety steps to protect others.
 
Old 12-26-2020, 03:26 PM
 
6,675 posts, read 4,232,268 times
Reputation: 8441
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior101 View Post
Doing better in what regard? California is currently #35 in cases per 1M population and #39 in deaths per 1M population. Most of the states that are doing better are NOT light on restrictions. These are mostly northern states, such as Oregon, Washington, Hawaii, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine?
Better in regards to positivity rate. I mentioned Florida because they’re wide open. You would think the state with strict restrictions like California would have a much lower rate than a state that has no restrictions. That’s puzzling. Other states with less restrictions have a lower positivity rate than California.

I disagree with heavier restrictions needed. How much heavier can they get? You need targeted restrictions now. More restrictions are not the answer.
 
Old 12-26-2020, 03:32 PM
 
4,307 posts, read 6,225,470 times
Reputation: 6092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer46 View Post
I don't disagree. Too many people are ignoring safety steps to protect others.
It’s just sad that people think carrying on like no big deal is the right way to proceed. I may be liberal but I am a capitalist. I’m not anti-business. I am pro health and know that we need to protect each other if we’re going to get back to normal any time soon.
 
Old 12-26-2020, 03:34 PM
 
4,307 posts, read 6,225,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post

I disagree with heavier restrictions needed. How much heavier can they get? You need targeted restrictions now. More restrictions are not the answer.
So, what would you close in your targeted restrictions? You were complaining about churches being closed as its part of the Christian religion, yet indoor religious services have been proven to be large spreader events.
 
Old 12-26-2020, 03:59 PM
 
6,675 posts, read 4,232,268 times
Reputation: 8441
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior101 View Post
So, what would you close in your targeted restrictions? You were complaining about churches being closed as its part of the Christian religion, yet indoor religious services have been proven to be large spreader events.
Outdoor dining restrictions are pretty useless. I was at a mall today and all the restaurants around the area are take out only. So people go get their food to go, then grab a seat at the tables the mall has set up in the outside areas. What’s the difference?

What you target depends on the data. In LA, the numbers show that restaurants have minimal cases. Let’s say grocery stores are found to be where most of the cases are coming from. You limit the number, like they are now, but you have someone checking temperatures at the door before they’re let in. Strictly enforce the masks. Give incentives for curbside pick up or delivery. Give a discount for those services. The same applies for retail.

For restaurants, you open outdoor dining first. If the numbers warrant it in a couple of weeks, you open limited indoor dining.

Keep track of the data and adjust. My issue with churches was that protests with thousands of people were ok, but churches weren’t. If that’s where the numbers show the cases are, then do online services like what’s been going on. You also ban protests if the numbers point to that. Courts are ruling that church and protests are constitutionally protected, so both those are probably a moot point.

No system is perfect, but it’s better than closing everything with no justification.

You can also limit access by age. It’s more serious for people over 65. You might have to have extra precautions for older people.

The other issue where there will be no agreement, is that it’s not 95% deadly like some people are acting like. There is some overkill, especially for younger people.
 
Old 12-26-2020, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
42,711 posts, read 25,867,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
Even the smaller churches have services online or at least they could. It’s not that hard to have a website and stream online. Not to turn this into a religious discussion, but part of the Christian doctrine is assembling together. I’m sure you know that.

I’m not sure about other faiths.
True, but the concept of assembling together as far as I know is not doctrine but cultural. The bible makes it clear that assembly is not a requirement of being a good Christian; “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). I found an article questioning what was meant by assembly in the Bible, it's an interesting read. The Purpose of the Assembly

Throughout history there have been examples of leaders of Churches discouraging people from going to church when doing so would put the parishioners health at risk epidemic killing people. To name a few:
Martin Luther
John Blevins
John Griscom
Rev. J. Francis Grimke
George R. Stuart
and more recently.. Dr. Jeff Barrows
 
Old 12-26-2020, 04:07 PM
 
Location: all over the place (figuratively)
6,602 posts, read 4,810,063 times
Reputation: 3591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
“Sensible speculation”? LOL. That may be worse than conjecture.

When you get some facts, post the links. Until then, your “sensible speculation” is a bunch of garbage.

What happened to “science and data”? How about seeing where the cases are coming from and target restrictions to those areas? If it’s restaurants, fine. If it’s retail stores, target them.

This random shotgun approach isn’t working.
I'm lucky to find any supporting data. It's not like researchers necessarily study that.
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/driving...drivers-survey
People drive less in wintery climates. Must I also 'prove' that people walk less outdoors in the cold?

There also would be a problem finding data about where infections are happening. 1) Most of it probably hasn't been released publicly. 2) Contact tracing has been ineffective.
Furthermore, crisis isn't the time to wait-and-see. Infections at this point are happening anywhere people mingle, of course much of which is private (like those drive-and-meet gatherings I previously implied) and in practice rarely subject to restrictions.

You create an unreasonably high burden of proof.
 
Old 12-26-2020, 04:10 PM
 
4,307 posts, read 6,225,470 times
Reputation: 6092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
Outdoor dining restrictions are pretty useless. I was at a mall today and all the restaurants around the area are take out only. So people go get their food to go, then grab a seat at the tables the mall has set up in the outside areas. What’s the difference?

What you target depends on the data. In LA, the numbers show that restaurants have minimal cases. Let’s say grocery stores are found to be where most of the cases are coming from. You limit the number, like they are now, but you have someone checking temperatures at the door before they’re let in. Strictly enforce the masks. Give incentives for curbside pick up or delivery. Give a discount for those services. The same applies for retail.

For restaurants, you open outdoor dining first. If the numbers warrant it in a couple of weeks, you open limited indoor dining.

Keep track of the data and adjust. My issue with churches was that protests with thousands of people were ok, but churches weren’t. If that’s where the numbers show the cases are, then do online services like what’s been going on. You also ban protests if the numbers point to that. Courts are ruling that church and protests are constitutionally protected, so both those are probably a moot point.

No system is perfect, but it’s better than closing everything with no justification.

You can also limit access by age. It’s more serious for people over 65. You might have to have extra precautions for older people.

The other issue where there will be no agreement, is that it’s not 95% deadly like some people are acting like. There is some overkill, especially for younger people.
There was a church up here in the Bay Area in San Jose, that had an indoor Christmas service with 700 people. They showed it on the news and virtually nobody was wearing a mask. One person was interviewed and said that the only people that are afraid are those that don't believe in an afterlife. I just thought how incredibly selfish of this person. Maybe they don't care about whether they die or not, but they should care about how they infect others. Not very Christian behavior of them. What happened to "love thy neighbor"?

I don't think churches and protests are on par with one another, at least with these types of examples. If you want it on par, look at the churches that only do services outdoors, with social distancing and required mask wearing. Plenty of churches do that, why can't all?

Personally, I think large protests have been problematic as well, but this isn't unique to BLM. Plenty of Trump rallies and honestly, most of those showed far worse compliance in terms of mask wearing. But I digress.

I think where we are now, we need to do whatever we can to slow down spread. While outdoor dining alone may not cause a lot of spread, the fact is that this gives another avenue for people to congregate and let their guard down. My thoughts are make it really strict now and all people should do their part to social distance and wear masks. Once the community spread goes down, then you can reopen gradually. However, if people are going to continue to act recklessly, they have only themselves to blame. That is not Newsom's fault, other than his hypocrisy in his own life.
 
Old 12-26-2020, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Ca expat loving Idaho
5,267 posts, read 4,126,046 times
Reputation: 8133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
Outdoor dining restrictions are pretty useless. I was at a mall today and all the restaurants around the area are take out only. So people go get their food to go, then grab a seat at the tables the mall has set up in the outside areas. What’s the difference?

What you target depends on the data. In LA, the numbers show that restaurants have minimal cases. Let’s say grocery stores are found to be where most of the cases are coming from. You limit the number, like they are now, but you have someone checking temperatures at the door before they’re let in. Strictly enforce the masks. Give incentives for curbside pick up or delivery. Give a discount for those services. The same applies for retail.

For restaurants, you open outdoor dining first. If the numbers warrant it in a couple of weeks, you open limited indoor dining.

Keep track of the data and adjust. My issue with churches was that protests with thousands of people were ok, but churches weren’t. If that’s where the numbers show the cases are, then do online services like what’s been going on. You also ban protests if the numbers point to that. Courts are ruling that church and protests are constitutionally protected, so both those are probably a moot point.

No system is perfect, but it’s better than closing everything with no justification.

You can also limit access by age. It’s more serious for people over 65. You might have to have extra precautions for older people.

The other issue where there will be no agreement, is that it’s not 95% deadly like some people are acting like. There is some overkill, especially for younger people.
You are just too logical for living in Ca. I’m about to go for a walk with friends then we’re going to eat inside a restaurant and listen to a band later. Az has high numbers but we’re leveling off and so far everything’s fully open. It’s great to live in a free state
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