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Some things are more important to some than others. What may seem petty to you is important to someone else.
To address citizen, I think they did cover places of worship when they mentioned mass gatherings. I remember initially they did limit the churches to 250 people. Our church held services and used overflow rooms. Then they banned them completely. Now they can meet at 25% or 100 people, whichever is less.
As far as a drive in concept, they are doing that in other states. They just made a big deal where I am about a drive-in movie place being allowed to reopen, so it’s not like they were discriminating against churches. As far as drive in food, most are in and out, so I think that’s different.
I understand your frustration, my grandson was spending a few days with us and lost his shoes (don't ask ) The only place I could buy him shoes was Target or Walmart which irritated me because they sell crappy shoes and my grandson was non-stop whining about how he only wanted Under Armor shoes. I have felt all along that it gave Target and Walmart a very unfair advantage. So I get that, but when I talked to family in other states it seems like they were all doing the same thing and since I figured it would only be like that for a few months I didn't big deal it. I couldn't see that anyone was conspiring to do anything to harm other stores, it just seems short sighted that they didn't consider shoes and clothes as being essential.
Churches are just petri dishes for contagion, just like airplanes are. I don't think any politician is so naive that he/she wants to isolate the religious community but what do you do? We had two churches have services with parishioners packed in like sardines, one of them ended up with 73 people with the virus one of whom died. I don't remember the numbers for the other church but it was far less than 73.
My brother-in-law is a pastor in rural Missouri, he started having services on zoom before anything was shut down in his state not because he was ordered to but because he didn't want to put his parishioners at risk. I asked him why all pastors didn't feel like him and he said "the only reason I can think of is because to some of them passing the collection plate is more important than protecting people's health"
I understand your frustration, my grandson was spending a few days with us and lost his shoes (don't ask ) The only place I could buy him shoes was Target or Walmart which irritated me because they sell crappy shoes and my grandson was non-stop whining about how he only wanted Under Armor shoes. I have felt all along that it gave Target and Walmart a very unfair advantage. So I get that, but when I talked to family in other states it seems like they were all doing the same thing and since I figured it would only be like that for a few months I didn't big deal it. I couldn't see that anyone was conspiring to do anything to harm other stores, it just seems short sighted that they didn't consider shoes and clothes as being essential.
Churches are just petri dishes for contagion, just like airplanes are. I don't think any politician is so naive that he/she wants to isolate the religious community but what do you do? We had two churches have services with parishioners packed in like sardines, one of them ended up with 73 people with the virus one of whom died. I don't remember the numbers for the other church but it was far less than 73.
My brother-in-law is a pastor in rural Missouri, he started having services on zoom before anything was shut down in his state not because he was ordered to but because he didn't want to put his parishioners at risk. I asked him why all pastors didn't feel like him and he said "the only reason I can think of is because to some of them passing the collection plate is more important than protecting people's health"
I also don’t understand why clothing wasn’t essential but liquor was. I’m sure there’s an element of “this is unprecedented in our lifetimes”.
Target is closing stores to avoid looting. Isn't that special. It was hard enough for most people to find essentials.
These are thugs and criminals. All protests should have stopped once the officer was arrested. The looters don’t care about Floyd. It’s an excuse to act like the criminals they are.
Some things are more important to some than others. What may seem petty to you is important to someone else.
To address citizen, I think they did cover places of worship when they mentioned mass gatherings. I remember initially they did limit the churches to 250 people. Our church held services and used overflow rooms. Then they banned them completely. Now they can meet at 25% or 100 people, whichever is less.
As far as a drive in concept, they are doing that in other states. They just made a big deal where I am about a drive-in movie place being allowed to reopen, so it’s not like they were discriminating against churches. As far as drive in food, most are in and out, so I think that’s different.
I remember there was a lot of confusion I remembered when the pandemic was brewing with everything first week of March or so as everything happened so suddenly.
Originally they first targeted public venue events i.e sports games, convention centers, fairgrounds, arenas, concert halls, city arts centers amphitheaters but recommended people avoid all large gathering. It was ambiguous when such unprecedented measures were implemented on who it targeted.
At that time it appeared only the largest mega churches or events of religious groups that rents municipal facilities listed above seems affected by their*crowd size guideline. Though ironically the state said that Disneyland or other amusement parks i.e Six Flags, Legoland, Seaworld, were not considered large gatherings at that time under those guidelines thus ok to stay open under the recommended guidelines despite them having 1000+ seat*facilitates inside. A few days later however Disneyland decided to shut down voluntarily followed reluctantly by the next few days in a cascading manner the remaining amusement parks in CA despite their original announced intention to stay open.
Simultaneously I also remembered many houses of worships heeded the coronavirus warnings though and decided to call off in person services on their own even prior to the amusement parks deciding to close.
however it appears despite announcing moving service online it appears some churches still have members who voluntarily show up to keep the choir and band going for online service which appeared to cause the cases related to church even well within the guidelines.
However since the state issued a shelter in place orders since March 20th some local governments decided to arbitrarily forbid any activity not just employment they deem nonessential even personal ones and they are free to call anything a "gathering" as they see fit which sometimes included harassing cars parked in the same turnout separately thus in some areas even people who were not "gathering" at all were harassed as well at times, despite how houses of worships were still not mentioned directly nor were gun shops, it how they got the leverage to stop any houses of worships that still offered service or in some places gun shops and others that refused to shut down. I guess thats their strategy to avoid constitutional issues down the road. Apparently it became a game of "mother may I" for everything. Some local areas i.e OC were more permissive as long as they follow social distancing and hygiene CDC guidelines and allowed drive thru services on Easter while others like SD area interpret the order to forbid it outright even drive thru services where there are no need for church tech employees just a preacher and cars parked in the lot which some did starting Easter.
To me it appears only when it came to reopening in May when worship services were ever mentioned on the plan.
A drive in movie would still need a lot of employees with direct contact with people to collect tickets and sell concessions though thus why they would not be permitted to work. Though interestingly the few drive in restaurants standing including Sonic were always allowed to function at full capacity and no spaces were blocked off ever.
Ironically the governor and all those local "hall monitors" now become silent with the recent events but I will leave it to another forum.
Churches have nothing in common with other businesses, people sitting next to each other, sometimes thousands at one service hugging and holding hands are a petri dish for this virus. Massage parlors have not been given the ok to open.
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing
Some of theses religious congregations seem to think they have some divine right above and beyond the rule of law and common sense to do whatever they want even in a life threatening global pandemic where large assemblies of people can be life threatening.
I am so old I can remember when Lefties believed in "choice" and allowing "consenting adults" to do what they wanted.
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Originally Posted by evening sun
No, but I doubt all 3000 people will want to attend, many people will be staying home. Especially those in the at risk groups. I don't see anything wrong in praying at home. Or holding a zoom service.
Can I guess you are not a regular church attender? Churches are much more than a one hour, one day a week event. There are many activities all week, a lot of volunteer activities that go on. It impacts far more than a single service. There are recovery groups, support groups, food pantries and more. My Newport Beach church helps several homeless ministries that I'm involved in and we haven't been able to help our clients for over two months now. We also partner with battered women, recovering addicts and at risk children. All of that has stopped for now and it has to be having a community impact.
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Originally Posted by 2sleepy
And do any of you think that God gives a crap whether or not you attend a service in person or on zoom?
Whatever else I am uncertain about, I am certain you do not know the mind of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy
Actually you can go to a bar, the only requirement is that they also sell food, but it appears that if they contract with a food truck that would suffice. We went to a brew pub last night, they've always served food so that wasn't an issue for them
Not "sell food", they have to provide "meals". Selling a hot dog won't do it.
Have you read the 12 pages of guidelines? They are micromanaging everything; no salt cellars or Tapatio on the table.
As to capacity, it isn't just about how many tables you have, but how fast can you turn them and can you keep them full. Few restaurants open at 100% full and maintain that until closing. There are peak times. And since you have to disinfect the table, the chairs, etc and then allow time for the disinfectant to work, that lowers capacity even more. You need a sales level of about $250 per square foot to not lose money in a restaurant. That will be very, very hard for a lot of place to achieve.
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Originally Posted by 18Montclair
Roberts sided with the liberals in this case.
Roberts has abandoned every legal principle he's advocated for his whole career. Why is only conservative justices who become unpredictable?
And oh, see above as to why churches are more than services.
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Originally Posted by 2sleepy
Newsom issued very specific guidelines, and they were not "unprecedented", they were in line with what every other state was doing.
This entire covid 19 response has been completely unprecedented. Show me the last time professional sports and college sports were stopped cold and shut down.
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Originally Posted by 2sleepy
No, it's because every public health official and virologist have stated how dangerous it is to have hundreds of people sitting next to each other speaking and singing in an enclosed space.
I will gladly read your link where "every public health official and virologist have stated how dangerous it is to have hundreds of people sitting next to each other speaking and singing".
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy
But honestly what you are complaining about doesn't amount to more than minor inconveniences. I have never seen so many people with alleged grievances over such petty things, quite frankly it's depressing
You don't live in my head, you live in your Mom's basement. Either that or you are utterly lacking in compassion for the people who've lost their jobs and businesses. There was a very sweet Vietnamese immigrant family that owned a bakery near me. Due to the lock down of the population and the shutting of the high school across the street, their business dropped 90% and they've had to close the store. They have middle school and elementary aged children. I have no idea how they will support them now.
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Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer
Target is closing stores to avoid looting. Isn't that special. It was hard enough for most people to find essentials.
I remember how hard they worked to get stores like Von's, Target, CVS, etc to move into the burned out areas after 1992. Any bets on the willingness of stores like these to move to or rebuild their looted, burned out stores?
I am so old I can remember when Lefties believed in "choice" and allowing "consenting adults" to do what they wanted.
And I'm so old that I remember getting polio when I was 4 and I remember how worried people were about their kids catching it and how hard they tried to avoid them from getting near anyone who might have it.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Can I guess you are not a regular church attender?
I'm an athiest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Whatever else I am uncertain about, I am certain you do not know the mind of God.
and you think you do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
I will gladly read your link where "every public health official and virologist have stated how dangerous it is to have hundreds of people sitting next to each other speaking and singing".
I'm afraid if I did you would say that you didn't like the sources so I will leave it to you to research it yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
You don't live in my head, you live in your Mom's basement. Either that or you are utterly lacking in compassion for the people who've lost their jobs and businesses. There was a very sweet Vietnamese immigrant family that owned a bakery near me. Due to the lock down of the population and the shutting of the high school across the street, their business dropped 90% and they've had to close the store. They have middle school and elementary aged children. I have no idea how they will support them now.
Sorry but mom doesn't have a basement, she died 30 years ago. But if you want to blame someone for the mess the economy is you need look no further than Dear Leader, he knew about the virus since January and did nothing even though he was briefed on it a dozen times. Imagine how different things could have been if he had taken it seriously in January or early February.
Many stores have lots of people in them. With the requirements only small neighborhood churches can open. Not really allowing churches to open.
Liquor stores, pot shops, massage parlors, strip clubs, smoke shops, casinos all open
People sit crowded together for long periods in churches. They're a completely different type of venue from a public health standpoint, than retail venues are. Even in casinos, ppl at the slots sit spaced apart. In church pews, ppl are closer together, unless the church is at half capacity & makes efforts to space people apart. That could work, maybe.
I am so old I can remember when Lefties believed in "choice" and allowing "consenting adults" to do what they wanted.
People aren't free to do what they want during a public health emergency. I'm sure you can understand that. This is a spurious argument. A more constructive approach to countering the measure keeping churches closed, would be to suggest congregations observe a 6- or 8-feet apart rule. The fact is, that there were instances of group spread of the disease in the early stages of the outbreak, that happened as a result of church attendance. It's very much a public health matter in current conditions, nothing more. No need to read anti-religion motives into it.
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) The only place I could buy him shoes was Target or Walmart which irritated me because they sell crappy shoes and my grandson was non-stop whining about how he only wanted Under Armor shoes. I have felt all along that it gave Target and Walmart a very unfair advantage. So I get that, but when I talked to family in other states it seems like they were all doing the same thing and since I figured it would only be like that for a few months I didn't big deal it. I couldn't see that anyone was conspiring to do anything to harm other stores, it just seems short sighted that they didn't consider shoes and clothes as being essential. 
