Mountain lion kills California man in state’s first fatal attack in 20 years (apartment, move)

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

Ranchers certainly did that. But that doesn’t answer the question I posed. As I said, I’m not particularly against hunting cougars. You had posed the theory that killing them would somehow “teach them” to stay away from humans. Maybe it would, but I don’t see how that would work with an animal as already furtive, naturally suspicious, elusive and solitary as cougars are. I suspect that killing one here and another there as they claim a territory - simply resets the territory as open. They don’t live, communicate, travel and hunt in social groups.

150 years ago there were twice as many cougars in California as there are today, as per the research I previously posted. Humans cut that down quite a lot in the first half of last century and since the 1970s the cat population has rebounded but only to roughly half the level of the eighteen hundreds and leveled off.

Somehow animals as a species learn, even relatively solitary ones like cats. Domestic cats became that way because there were mice in the granaries and around houses. People found them useful for killing mice. Some found the occasional cuddle or head rub good. Others like being thrown spare food. Thus, many "outdoor cats" are relatively people-friendly though not on the level of dogs, which are a pack animal. It seems reasonable to suppose the process would work in reverse.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

Somehow animals as a species learn, even relatively solitary ones like cats. Domestic cats became that way because there were mice in the granaries and around houses. People found them useful for killing mice. Some found the occasional cuddle or head rub good. Others like being thrown spare food. Thus, many "outdoor cats" are relatively people-friendly though not on the level of dogs, which are a pack animal. It seems reasonable to suppose the process would work in reverse.

Well, I understand all this you are saying. Dogs evolved to extremes through association with humans. BUT, here we’re not talking hundreds and thousands of years of generational evolution. And we’re not talking about animals that have ever been willing to have anything to do with humans to begin with (except maybe to eat us )

Other animals, social animals, such as elephants, other primates, whales and dolphins even, deer … et al … sure. They are social, and generationally so. I get it. Cougars? I’m struggling to figure how a similar process works with an animal so solitary, suspicious, furtive, and non-social.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

Well, I understand all this you are saying. Dogs evolved to extremes through association with humans. BUT, here we’re not talking hundreds and thousands of years of generational evolution. And we’re not talking about animals that have ever been willing to have anything to do with humans to begin with (except maybe to eat us )

Other animals, social animals, such as elephants, other primates, whales and dolphins even, deer … et al … sure. They are social, and generationally so. I get it. Cougars? I’m struggling to figure how a similar process works with an animal so solitary, suspicious, furtive, and non-social.

that's exactly why I use cats as my example.Cats have evolved fairly quickly into being social to the point advantageous to themselves. So can they learn that man is an enemy and not a friend.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

that's exactly why I use cats as my example.Cats have evolved fairly quickly into being social to the point advantageous to themselves. So can they learn that man is an enemy and not a friend.

But cougars are not social. In the slightest. And no indication of ever becoming so. House cats are a breed apart. African lions are somewhat social … not sure any other felines are … and cougars, absolutely not at all.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

But cougars are not social. In the slightest. And no indication of ever becoming so. House cats are a breed apart. African lions are somewhat social … not sure any other felines are … and cougars, absolutely not at all.

Actually there are a few pet cougars that do well. And they have to produce offspring somehow. Now leopards are a different story except for reproduction.

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

People are getting awfully far down the road of panic when the article says, right off the bat, that this was the first fatal attack in two decades. This doesn't warrant a change in behavior or a change in policies.

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

Originally Posted by ChrisMT

I was reading some comments from residents of these smaller Sierra towns and basically, mountain lions are all over the towns because the deer are in town hiding from the mountain lions. Also, these lions are not just in the Sierra wilderness, they are in green belts near big cities and people are seeing them on their doorbell cams at night.

What I know as basic common sense is that anywhere deer are regularly present, you need to assume there are mountain lions close by as well.

These men were not way off in the wilderness on a trail, they were on a road just outside of town. It only took minutes for first responders to arrive. I have mountain biked on Ice House Road in the past.

They should allow some basic hunting to scare the cats from human contact. They aren't afraid of people, living and growing up in close contact.

Nevada is allowing a few bull moose to be hunted with only a population of less than 20 moose here. It isn't going to decimate the lion population to allow some tags.

There needs to be common sense, these lions don't have many enemies in the wild.

For the record, I am not a hunter and find it distasteful, but it serves a purpose as long as the animals don't suffer for long periods, like trapping

Mountain lion attacks are very infrequent, despite the close proximity many lions live in with humans, so doesn't it seem like the current system is working well? Do we really need to introduce a new hunting program when this was the first fatal attack in two decades? In the entire United States, this was the first fatal attack in six years.

[evening sun]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

Mountain lion attacks are very infrequent, despite the close proximity many lions live in with humans, so doesn't it seem like the current system is working well? Do we really need to introduce a new hunting program when this was the first fatal attack in two decades? In the entire United States, this was the first fatal attack in six years.

Thank you for a reasonable response, killing everything in sight makes no sense.

[Tulemutt]

Just looking stuff up, came across this … note, with regard to past discussion of whether it’s possible to fight off a cougar with hand weapon other than firearm:

August 21, 1868 "Killed by a Cougar.— The Oregon Harold of August 24th contains the following: On the 21st instant, a little child three years old, of Mr. Patton, living on Rear Creek, three miles west of the Long Tom, in Lane county, was killed by a cougar. The child was playing in the yard and within, ten feet of the door of the dwelling, when the cougar sprang upon it from the bushes which grew near the house. The mother seeing the beast drag her child towards the timber, seized a stick and started in pursuit. She attacked the cougar with such resolution that it dropped its burden, and the heroic woman taking the lifeless body under one arm and her only remaining child under the other, made her way to a neighbor's house, a mile and a half distant. Mr. Patton was absent from home at the time."[10] Lane County, Oregon

[Veritas Vincit]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

People are getting awfully far down the road of panic when the article says, right off the bat, that this was the first fatal attack in two decades. This doesn't warrant a change in behavior or a change in policies.

I see cougar attacks like I see shark attacks or bear attacks. It's part of the perils of living on the edge of the wilderness or pursuing activities in the wilderness. I do not think there's any need to actively go after these animals to reduce their populations unless they're too high for the local ecosystem. However, in any event, humans have the right to defend themselves and their companions by the best possible means.