Hyperion: Tallest Redwood: Heard hide or hair? Scuttlebutt? (San Jose, Santa Cruz: lawsuit, club)

[mdvaden]

For others curious about problem solving using a profiling angle, here's one example from brainstorming with others. A trio gets messy. Solo is unlikely. People like or need help. This incorporates rate of transition, and several other factors.

1. Two people.

2. One with good or advanced computer, code, internet or technical skill

3. One with with reasonably good photography or exposure skill

4. Close proximity. 0 to 300 miles from Humboldt (ish)

5. Been to the Giant Sequoias

6. Been to the Coast Redwoods at least monthly

7. IP addresses are recorded in forum logs in some fashion

8. Name, vehicle or plate may be on a public record gate access log

9. May know more than letting on

10. Emailed / contacted some other who explores in some fashion at some point in time

11. At least one doesn't like, or afraid to make mistakes

12. Has some fear of the tree community

13. Big on facts, numbers and info. Would stand out to many as a "data-digger"

14. Void of accomplishments in the redwoods

15. Is willing to mislead or assume

Anyone else want a try?

No names, just ideas. Just a estimating game.

[totallyawesometruthsayer]

Originally Posted by mdvaden

Thats because you didn't get the point.

Residential needs no cables. Just a hairpin and tape, if anyone is handy with profiling.

So you're proposing sneaking hidden cameras into the private homes of people you suspect of having leaked tree locations? The MO of a sex predator? You're a clown.

Originally Posted by mdvaden

BTW ... for everyone else since T/A would care to know anyway, but 1mm is all it takes to seal soil. If you laid a continuous sheet of 1mm thick plastic over 1 acre of dry paved parking and the sheet was seamless, you could spray water on it all day and it won't pass through. Nor would gases move upward. Thin compaction can be as brutal as thick compaction.

Thanks for the heads up that laying acre sized sheets of 1mm plastic on the ground is bad for plants. You learn something new every day. Have you tested this, or is it just a pet theory?

Also, it's bad form to continuously go back and edit your posts for content. Spelling/grammar correction is acceptable.

[OldManWinter]

totallyawesome you make me want to puke. It must really eat at you day and night that you can't find trees like Helios, Icarus, Juggernaut, Orion, etc. Sorry buddy game over and you lose. Everything Mr. Vaden has stated in this thread is dead-on. His profile of FR is dead-on. Every time I look at FR I sit hear just laughing my butt off for like 15 minutes cuz y'all can't find Helios. Maybe you haven't gone far enough up Lost Man Creek. Loser.

[totallyawesometruthsayer]

Originally Posted by OldManWinter

Lost Man Creek.

You mean Tom McDonald Creek.

[mdvaden]

Originally Posted by OldManWinter

totallyawesome you make me want to puke. It must really eat at you day and night that you can't find trees like Helios, Icarus, Juggernaut, Orion, etc.

Old Man Winter.

Quick note to point out something. That is not a known fact. For a very brief time, I assumed that based on missing information. Then I realized that missing information was not proof.

That's the point at where I considered that missing information could equally mean the opposite of what it appeared like. In other words, it could be the missing piece it resembles, or it could be a red-herring to lead people to believe the opposite of what it means.

But a new game has started. T/A suggested some war was over. There ain't no war, but what FRs may thought ended, actually began. Sort of an Endor's Game.

One thing about the FRs guys, they are pretty much zeroes with no intuition. The great tree hunters didn't just go on facts. They went on intuition too. So with the new game, clues alone are not all there is to look for. Intuition will play a big part.

Also Oldman, we are a small piece right now. Its not like the tree discovery folks are the main undercurrent flowing right now. But I'm not at liberty to share more than a few bits and pieces here.

[mdvaden]

Originally Posted by OldManWinter

His profile of FR is dead-on.

LOL

OldMan ...

I just want to keep thinking my profile is crazy ...

Like Castor Troy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7LmN5IeLlk



Cheers

[MarkGraham]

Originally Posted by totallyawesometruthsayer

You mean Tom McDonald Creek.

That looks to be a nice hiking route which would go by many redwoods however anyone viewing please keep in mind Redwood Creek at Orick has been 12 or more feet deep for the past month and is fast flowing. Even the source site itself mentions do not attempt until mid summer.

[mdvaden]

https://youtu.be/Ej9siBXzHzY

Originally Posted by MarkGraham

Redwood Creek at Orick has been 12 or more feet deep for the past month and is fast flowing.

Not sure how dangerous the creeks are right now.

But what about the locals. I literally saw a guy dropping his pants along Redwood Creek. Reminded me of the movie deliverance.


https://youtu.be/Ej9siBXzHzY

Video Clip

[mdvaden]

Originally Posted by totallyawesometruthsayer

There are no laws against saying where trees are.

To others besides T/A who probably doesn't have your, or the redwoods best interests at heart ... there are laws against copyright violations ... and rules exist elsewhere against content violations. This wasn't pointed out much yet. For example ...

do anything inappropriate, illegal, or in violation of others' rights (including their privacy, publicity, and intellectual property rights).

If some were to use Google maps in a way that authorities or conservation groups deem inappropriate, the content would be a violation of terms. And violation of terms can spill into violation of law.

Every single use must have a credit or attribution ...

"All uses of the Content must provide attribution to both Google and our data providers. We require clear, visible attribution when the Content is shown. You may not move the attribution to the end credits or fade it out after a few seconds."

Every piece of content without attribution could be a violation.

People thinking about taking or using copyright material are the one told things like this ...

Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) provides very powerful options for a copyright owner to protect his or her works in the digital space. By hitting “publish,” you may be opening a can of worms.

Now, back to the reward fund. Aside from burl poachers, we are leveraging research. If our research acquires what seem the perfect puzzle pieces, those would be forwarded to Redwood National and State Parks, Save the Redwoods League, Humboldt State University, and possibly the Sierra Club. All of them have legal teams at their disposal. And we will leave it in their hands to work out other legalities or options. But there are more than trees to look at here.

That's why I wrote earlier that we have no worries. We are focused on acquiring information.

[EShcherbakov]

Hello everyone.

I've registered just to write this post, hopefully you all will forgive me for that. I want to share maybe a really "outsider" point of view, as I have become interested in Sequoioideae only a few days ago. Also, I am from Russia and I am not a botanist or even a tree seeker.

Even though this may seem heretical here, I think, there are reasons on both sides of this, though not necessary of equal importance.

Since the discovery of Hyperion, I've read anywhere and everywhere that its location is intentionally hid by researchers. At the same time, there was almost nothing in the same public sources about the reasons for this, aside from a quite abstract "damage" from visitors. During the past few days, searching deliberately for this information, I've discovered Steve Hall's website first, then mdvaden's website, and learn about what happened to Mendocino and Grove of Titans. To my horror, I've also discovered "burl poaching", which was completely unknown to me. Still, the danger from all these hazards to Hyperion and many other record holders growing in quite remote and difficult areas was not entirely convincing. In this debate between biologists and supporters of location disclosure, the first couldn't even coherently argument as to what damage precisely could be done to Hyperion, can this damage be verified and if it's important at all, given the adjacent trees? What I feel I personally need are not merely statements, but papers and verifiable facts. If there is such an information on some website, then I'm sorry for this remark, and please, guide me to it.

It did not help that I've found the tone of some redwood community sources and websites noticeably elitistic. Sorry, but that's really my honest impression. Maybe that's because some of tree seekers in their reports of discovering (at last) the known hidden record holders put a strong emphasize on "I've found the tree, yay, but no, no, I'm definitely not leaking any clues to you or even good photos", instead of "look, what a magnificent tree, I can't reveal its location because of the following possible damage ... but here, I took a stunning pictures of it! Oh, catch a clue in case you want to find it yourself" (I sincerely thank mdvaden, since his website is much, much closer to the second style).

One of the arguments made here is that there is no appreciation by FRs for the Forest, and while the Trees are very impressive, it is the Forest which should be appreciated first and foremost. I wholeheartedly agree. However, just by looking at the photographs it is evident that the Forest itself is extremely diverse, both between and within the parks. Yet the locations of prominent groves are kept as secret as the locations of the individual trees.

Another argument is that the trees themselves are accessible to anyone, and anyone can find them given enough dedication, as has been proved by several people here. Unfortunately, this is only true for US or even California residents, or very rich people, who can afford multi-year searches and many hikes. Do you believe that the redwoods belong only to US citizens? Or it's a treasure of the whole mankind? If it is the latter, you must be aware that until the locations are revealed to the general public, for most people on Earth, even those who can afford at least a short trip to California, Hyperion and others will remain totally inaccessible. For this single reason I am glad that the leak has happened, even though it is probably entirely egoistical emotion on my part. I understand that a whole plast of the tree hunting culture has been destroyed.

Then there is the most important question. Should anyone outside of the scientific and tree seeker community even see those trees? In Russia, there are many more nature reserves with total protection, not allowing general visitors ("zapovedniki"), than national parks, and I think it is wonderful that in this case people can freely go and explore the Forest. I also think that not all trees in the Forest are of similar value; some of them can be called manifestations of this forest, and can impress generations of people, inspiring them to study and protect these trees and the forest with them. Does the damage to these trees outweighs such an inspiration, even if other trees around will remain undisturbed? That is the question I have yet to see the answer to.

Secrets are never long-lived. I think that instead of creating the atmosphere of secresy and chosenness around the record holders, consciously or not, the tree community should have long ago opened the path to these trees to many people. Not the locations, but the path! Guiding by hand those, who really want to see these giants, and educating them about the ways to visit the trees and not harm them during the process. Now the leak has happened. The damage will be done, unless the tree community take control of the situation and start to actively educate people who will go to the trees anyway. Preparing convincing and detailed answers for the years-old questions of those who - surprise - know nothing of botany or horticulture. Maybe also pressing the parks for more control and protection from the real danger - burl poachers and climbers. Unfortunately, it seems that here, on the forum, the main task is finding and punishing whoever behing FRs, then closing the club even more. Citing mdvaden: "Around 2014 we started holding back some discoveries. And in 2015 even more were not mentioned or shown at all. Literally dozens." So, the general public won't even know who the real new champions are. And don't forget the science. While there is a dedicated scientific community researching redwood ecosystems, further secrecy will likely transform it into a closed society where only those with the right handshakes can enter. And science has never benefited from isolation.

I hope my message doesn't come across as rude or disrespectful. I have a tremendous respect for every tree seeker, because without you, people like me would never know about such amazing Wonders of Nature. It's just the disconnection between trees, seekers and other people that bugs me so much.

Sorry for my English.

~Evgeny