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More good news today with the $1 million donation from the California Teachers Union to the No on 8 campaign
It is part of a $5 million contribution for multiple initiatives. After the election is over, it will be interesting to see how many of the citizens respond when the teachers complain about having to spend money out of their own pockets for some school supplies. Think some folks may remember this $5 million expenditure for political purposes not specifically involving schools?:
The California Teachers Association will spend up to $5 million on five of the 12 initiatives on the November state ballot.
The union will financially support Proposition 3, the Children's Hospital Bond Act, and oppose Propositions 4, 6, 8 and 9...As a California teacher, you may applaud these stances and expenditures or not. Regardless, if you are a member of the California Teachers Association, you are contributing more than $15 to them.
It is part of a $5 million contribution for multiple initiatives. After the election is over, it will be interesting to see how many of the citizens respond when the teachers complain about having to spend money out of their own pockets for some school supplies. Think some folks may remember this $5 million expenditure for political purposes not specifically involving schools?:
The California Teachers Association will spend up to $5 million on five of the 12 initiatives on the November state ballot.
The union will financially support Proposition 3, the Children's Hospital Bond Act, and oppose Propositions 4, 6, 8 and 9...As a California teacher, you may applaud these stances and expenditures or not. Regardless, if you are a member of the California Teachers Association, you are contributing more than $15 to them.
I plan on voting Yes on propostion 8. But not without reading both sides of the issue and considering the pros/cons.
During the vice presidential debates Biden and Palin where asked two important questions.
1. Do you support civil rights for same sex couples?
2. How would you define Marriage?
Surprising they both answered the same on these Qs. Obviously there are many things which they would not agree upon. But I think the vast majority of Americans would agree with these two points as would I.
However the problem is that 'the devil is as they say in the details.' I for one don't like where this proposition is going. Primarily this sets a legal precident allowing teachers and the public school system to instruct children that 'Marriage' is not necessarily between a man and a women - hence effecting the definition of 'Marriage.'
While the No on Prop 8 group will strongly disagree, many of those same ppl would argue that it is only logicial that children be taught this new definition. The SF teacher's 'field trip' to her gay wedding was just the tip of the iceberg IMO.
So the real problem for me and many other Americans is how do we meet somewhere in the middle? Callling someone names like bigot because they disagree with your vote is childish and stupid. All it accomplishes is polarizing the issue for both sides. While this thread is not going to change anyone's mind on prop 8, it could help us to look for some common ground. Even though I am a registered Republican I am open to looking across the isle to find something both sides can agree upon.
Here is the primary question for me. How do I as a California parent with traditional values give civil rights to same sex couples while still maintaining those traditional values and ideals in the public school system? I am all for gay couples having civil rights. I just don't like the heavy handed approach taken by these groups to change things which I deem important like the education of our children.
So is there a middle ground where sensible people both gay and straight can sit down and agree on something that makes sense for both sides? Or is it all or nothing for you?
Derek
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 10-17-2008 at 10:23 PM..
I plan on voting Yes on propostion 8. But not without reading both sides of the issue and considering the pros/cons.
"During the vice presidential debates Biden and Palin where asked two important questions.
1. Do you support civil rights for same sex couples?
2. How would you define Marriage?
Surprising they both answered the same on these Qs. Obviously there are many things which they would not agree upon. But I think the vast majority of Americans would agree with these two points as would I.
However the problem is that 'the devil is as they say in the details.' I for one don't like where this proposition is going. Primarily this sets a legal precident allowing teachers and the public school system to instruct children that 'Marriage' is not necessarily between a man and a women - hence effecting the definition of 'Marriage.' "
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Proposition 8 was started by the group that wants to ban gay marriage, why would they include something in their proposition that would force education of children about gay marriage. The proposition was not initiated by gay people or their supporters and I do not think that gay or lesbian parents would want their children to be forced to learn something that the parents would not themselves teach them. This is a lie started by the supporters to scare parents into thinking that it will happen. The state already allows parents to take their children out of school if they disagree. Voting no does not change the current standing of the law in California.
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" "While the No on Prop 8 group will strongly disagree, many of those same ppl would argue that it is only logicial that children be taught this new definition. The SF teacher's 'field trip' to her gay wedding was just the tip of the iceberg IMO. " "
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It was not a field trip, the teacher took the day off and the parents of those kids took their kids out of school and took them to the wedding. It was not a school trip.
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"I found this article very intersting regarding this topic: Who is really lying?
So the real problem for me and many other Americans is how do we meet somewhere in the middle? Callling someone names like bigot because they disagree with your vote is childish and stupid. All it accomplishes is polarizing the issue for both sides. While this thread is not going to change anyone's mind on prop 8, it could help us to look for some common ground. Even though I am a registered Republican I am open to looking across the isle to find something both sides can agree upon.
Here is the primary question for me. How do I as a California parent with traditional values give civil rights to same sex couples while still maintaining those traditional values and ideals in the public school system? I am all for gay couples having civil rights. I just don't like the heavy handed approach taken by these groups to change things which I deem important like the education of our children. "
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Sometimes a heavy hand is the only way to force things to happen that have taken too long to happen anyway. This is the 21st century and we are 40 years from when multi racial couples got the full right across The USA to marry who ever they please. Gay people deserve the same equal rights, not separate rights. If I have to have separate rights, then I do not think I should have to pay taxes for your children to go to school. By the way, even though I do not have children, I nearly always vote for measures that improve the health, welfare and education for them.
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"So is there a middle ground where sensible people both gay and straight can sit down and agree on something that makes sense for both sides? Or is it all or nothing for you? "
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I think that if we could seek this middle ground that would be great. This means a lot to me to be able to marry my partner of 29 years. It puts us on the same ground as all of our straight married friends who celebrate one anniversery after another and ignore ours because to them it lacked validity and was not equal to theirs, even though we have been together longer than most of them. One just had their 40th and another had their 38th. My sister just had her 42nd and she, her husband and grown kids thought of us as a married couple even before the state granted us the right.
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"Derek
"
Thank you Derek for your honesty and your willingness to try and communicate and maybe understand. I have been in the middle ground for a long time now and feel the need to support my gay brothers and lesbian sisters in the fight for the same freedoms that everyone else enjoys.
I do not know how to quote individual sections of a persons thread and make a comment on each separately. I went back in edit and put quotation marks at the beginning and end of the posters words. I also put dashed lines above and below mine. Sorry
Last edited by TheDragonslayer; 10-18-2008 at 02:00 AM..
I would like to take a minute, as a person who is in a same-sex marriage to say that I don't appreciate the folks who are saying that ALL proponents of prop 8 are bigots and basing their opinions on hate.
The one thing the yes on 8 folks are right about is that if we are going to support tolerance it has to go both ways. We should be tolerant of their religous convictions.
Although there are PLENTY of bigots supporting the measure, it is counterproductive to generalize and prejudice based on this. Some people are just truly misled and believe that a yes on prop 8 would protect their children etc. Of course, this is not true, but can't we be tolerant of them as well?
I have no doubt, that given a civil debate and appealing to those who are actually not bigots but are planning on voting yes on 8 we will win every time. They are out there, they aren't bigots, and if they hear the truth I have no doubt they will do the right thing and eventually vote no on 8.
Tolerance goes both ways. Im willing to support that and hopefully a few folks who had originally planned on voting yes on 8 will have a civil discussion with me as to the merits of my position that a no vote on proposition 8 is a necessity in a society that does not discriminate against minorities. Let us talk with the honestly good people who have been lied to. Its not their fault, they are making rational decisions. We know that 50% of California is not irrational! Lets be real and reach out with compassion in the same way we want to be treated.
Sincerely,
Please talk to me civilly about why a no vote on 8 is the right thing to do.
I'm voting against Prop 8, but I do respect your opinion as well as everyone participating in the election and choosing to vote however we please. We should all be thankful that not only are these votes private but we can keep all our limbs while disagreeing with one another
Anyway, I voted against it because I do agree with the CA supreme court that homosexuals have equal protection under the law like heterosexuals. Even if it is currently legal in CA for gays to get married, churches don't necessarily have to unite them under God or give them the blessings if they choose not to. But homosexual couples deserve the right to be legally tied with the same benefits as any married couple. These 'civil unions' are separate from the church but still these couples will benefit from situations that they would otherwise be difficult to handle if they were not married.
Society is becoming more accepting of homosexual individuals; and even if Prop 8 succeeds with the majority of voters, it is inevitable that one day, if not the next, everyone WILL have the right to marry anybody they please. It's been only decades since individuals are able to marry interracially. Nobody has a problem with that I'm sure one day, people in general will have a change of heart.
I really appreciate your thoughts on this. It is good to hear your side of things.
Even though this may not seem like a complex issue to some I really think that it is. There will always be extremists. But I am hopefull that at the very least this raises public awareness for both sides of all the issues at hand. And I think it is fairly safe to say that no matter how this particular proposition goes these issues will continue to be brought before us as Americans to weigh and wrestle with. It is good food for thought. And we do need to come together and find more common ground in spite our differences.
I'm voting against Prop 8 .. Anyway, I voted against it because I do agree with the CA supreme court that homosexuals have equal protection under the law like heterosexuals. Even if it is currently legal in CA for gays to get married, churches don't necessarily have to unite them under God or give them the blessings if they choose not to. But homosexual couples deserve the right to be legally tied with the same benefits as any married couple. These 'civil unions' are separate from the church but still these couples will benefit from situations that they would otherwise be difficult to handle if they were not married.
Christian churches do marry gay couples [United Church of Christ\ Episcopalian\ some Lutheran w/ a bishop's approval, etc]. We have to distinguish what denominations bless all people of God & those who do not. Sadly, as a Catholic, I am embarrassed by the Church's response & the overall suppression of sexuality [& how it negatively effects the priesthood]. Baptist & Mormon have been the most active\ funding of Prop 8.
Hummmm, I have always considered myself a liberal, live and let live. I'm a graphic artist, female, and have met and liked the gay men in my industry. Fully believe same sex couples should have the joys of life the same as anybody else...
But, I am also a parent and feel uncomfortable having this issue added to the education process of my children...keep in mind I haven't even explained sex to my 9 year old daughter yet, chicken that I am. But I don't want the schools explaining, sex, marriage, or same sex marriages to my kids. That is my job as a parent.
My understanding is same sex marriages will enter the school education system and I don't want that to happen. So I will vote "Yes" on 8.
Hummmm, I have always considered myself a liberal, live and let live. I'm a graphic artist, female, and have met and liked the gay men in my industry. Fully believe same sex couples should have the joys of life the same as anybody else...
But, I am also a parent and feel uncomfortable having this issue added to the education process of my children...keep in mind I haven't even explained sex to my 9 year old daughter yet, chicken that I am. But I don't want the schools explaining, sex, marriage, or same sex marriages to my kids. That is my job as a parent.
My understanding is same sex marriages will enter the school education system and I don't want that to happen. So I will vote "Yes" on 8.
Izzy
This speaks again to the complexity of the issues at hand. Although some would argue that all these issues are separate, I can't help but see the obvious logical and legal connections. This is not as simple as ethnic rights like interracial marriage which is color based. This involves sexual education of our children as well in defining Marriage.
And there is also a spiritual element which was eluded to above. Marriage has a very 'sacred' nature to it which is directly intertwined with one's faith in many religions.
So many Americans from various cultures and backgrounds will not necessarily agree on how Marriage is presented to our young 'hearts and minds.'
Although these issues are all interconnected I think we still need to find better ways of providing the same civil rights for 'All' Americans including gays. The difficulty is doing this while still respecting the beliefs of others (many different faiths) and not pushing an educational agenda on families which is directly opposed to their values and desires for the sexual education of their children.
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 10-18-2008 at 12:33 PM..
If your problem is not with gay marriage, but only with children being taught about it. Why not vote no on proposition 8 and then put a new proposition forwards that bans the education of young children on gay marriage? It would be a perfect middle ground don't you think?
I think we have found our middle ground! We all agree gays and lesbians deserve equal rights and we all agree (even myself) that children shouldn't be taught about gay marriage.
So, we've got it. We can all vote no on prop 8 and then I will support and donate to a new proposition that bans the education of children about gay marriage.
Lets vote one issue at a time, the way its supposed to be.
Sincerely
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