The OFFICIAL Proposition 8 Thread: READ HERE FIRST (Freedom: to live, legally)

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

Oakland Police filed reports yesterday of death threats received at the homes of 2 Mormon Stake Presidents in Oakland over their support of Prop 8. A Stake President is similar to a Catholic Arch Bishop. Both of them are Tongan and this is being treated as a hate crime.

It's ironic that one must be a race if the hate crime is against religion, but if you are gay then it doesn't matter what race you are. Worldwide, more hate crimes are committed because of a persons religion than for any other reason each year.

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by sav858

I'm still confused, how is the govt interfering with your parenting duty as it is right now with regards to Prop 4?

I understand why you support it but I just don't get the whole "govt interference" argument. To me, supporting Prop 4 brings the govt in where it currently isn't.

Because, they can authorize my daughter to have an abortion without ever telling me. Is that not interfering with my parental rights??

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

I cant wait for this to be over. Win or Lose, this issue will never be resolved until "marriage" and government get divorced. LOL

That's my view.

Amen to that!

[sav858]

Originally Posted by Zapparulez

Because, they can authorize my daughter to have an abortion without ever telling me. Is that not interfering with my parental rights??

How are they authorizing your daughter? Doesn't planned parenthood or a private hospital take care of everything related to abortions? I'm just not aware of how the govt is involved currently in the abortion process at all.

[Kyle B]

Originally Posted by Zapparulez

I am voting yes because:

1. The court rulings discriminate against the religious freedom of Americans, therefore violating the First Amendment.
2. It has everything to do with schools and what is taught. To allow a constitutional violation such as this to continue is a travesty.
3. If the state did not require couples to register and pay a fee to get married, this wouldn't be an issue. Both religious and gay people would be married under "Common Law", therefore the rights and beliefs of both would be respected. Time to reevaluate your beliefs about state involvement, especially when its in violation of Separate of Church and State.
4. Separation of Church and State does not mean that Freedom of Religion can be ignored or violated.
5. Every consenting adult should have the right to do as they please under whatever belief they have, but not when the state decides what beliefs hold more merit.
6. Marriage will be a religious ceremony until the state gets out of it. Marriage has been a religious ceremony for thousands of years before California or the United States of America existed. To redefine it under LAW would violate the religious freedom of everyone in California...including Gays. Get the state out and this isn't an issue...it really is as simple as that!
7. The left's unwillingness to compromise is the central reason why this is a fight to the death. The total disregard of our belief structure that has existed for thousands of years flies in the face of our First Amendment rights. I am sorry, but you cannot decide which rights deserve to be respected and which rights do not. The First Amendment applies to ALL Americans, therefore, a compromise is the only way to respect ALL of the rights of individuals as protected under the Constitution of the United States of America. This is why I can never vote liberal, because they are hypocritical when it comes to Equality for ALL.

I could go on and on, but the left is not interested in respecting my religious freedom. Therefore, I will not respect their rights. It really does come down to that. I want to tell a quick story that has brightened my outlook, especially in light of a certain person's comment about OVERestimating the support for Prop 8.

My family and I was on the way to my wife's grandmothers' 91st birthday when we pulled up to a major intersection here in Sacramento. I could hear honking and cheering to my left, but couldn't see anything and we didn't know what it was all about. In my pessimism, I said it's probably those anti-prop 8 people who want to destroy religion in California. Imagine my surprise when I say about 30-40 people waving Family First Prop 8 signs and the "Honk for Prop 8" sign. This light is notoriously long, so we sat there for several minutes listening to honking and hooting going like crazy from dozens of passing cars. When our light turned green, our car too honked as we passed by. I feel good about Tuesday now...perhaps the radical leftists hatemongers of religion will consider compromise AFTER California reaffirms their belief in Religious FREEDOM!

How many times do we really need to hear about religous freedom? Religion is such an enormous problem in the US, no one will touch anything someone says as long as god is thrown in there. Im sorry but religous freedom is secured, alittle too secured in my opinion, but seriously is it really going to effect you personally if gay's can marry? You already hate gay people, the only difference is now you will hate married gay people. It's non-sensical bs in my opinion that people in this day and age can still find things to hate about each other. And i apologize if this sounds alittle harsh but religion is a corporation, they pull in billions and billions of dollars a year by telling people to "send in money for god". Its nonsense, 3 years ago a 40 story tall pair of golden hands in the shape of someone praying were built as an entrance to a school. It cost 65 million dollars to build....does that benefit me in anyway, shape or form? No, nor does it any other non-religous person, but there it is standing tall for everyone to see. Well in my opinion, your infringing on my right to not be constantly badgered with a populace so quick to please "god" and shun anyone who dosent. But hell what do i know im 19 and already fed up with this ****.

[LASam]

Are churches current REQUIRED to perform gay marriages? If not, then how are religious freedoms being infringed upon?

[wehotex]

Originally Posted by tangodoodles

But the church was advising members how to vote. I feel the same about the Catholic church, although it pains me a bit. When they include an insert in the Sunday bulletin telling people to "vote with their conscience" on Prop 8, I see that as voter coercion. There are some people, like my parents, who don't care what the church tells them but do what they feel is right and there are other people who maybe aren't that concerned about gay marriage but when they see that their church wants them to support Prop 8, they go ahead and do it. Fast food corporations create shell groups to fight any nutritional laws that might pass and cause them to lose money or, horror of horrors, make their food healthier. Churches do the same thing. They create "political action groups" to endorse political views without endangering their tax exempt statuses. It's a joke.

If these churches are to receive tax exempt status, they should at the very least use that status to promote the public good. Their financial largesse should not be used to build magnificent temples or churches on valuable property or fight against rights of ordinary citizens. They could use their funds to fight poverty, tend to those wounded from the war, etc. Throughout states where mormonism is present, you will find extravagant spending of money to build temples that would put the sultan of dubai to shame. their spending is woefully misdirected and a mockery of church's tax exemption in this country.

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by Kyle B

How many times do we really need to hear about religous freedom? Religion is such an enormous problem in the US, no one will touch anything someone says as long as god is thrown in there. Im sorry but religous freedom is secured, alittle too secured in my opinion, but seriously is it really going to effect you personally if gay's can marry? You already hate gay people, the only difference is now you will hate married gay people. It's non-sensical bs in my opinion that people in this day and age can still find things to hate about each other. And i apologize if this sounds alittle harsh but religion is a corporation, they pull in billions and billions of dollars a year by telling people to "send in money for god". Its nonsense, 3 years ago a 40 story tall pair of golden hands in the shape of someone praying were built as an entrance to a school. It cost 65 million dollars to build....does that benefit me in anyway, shape or form? No, nor does it any other non-religous person, but there it is standing tall for everyone to see. Well in my opinion, your infringing on my right to not be constantly badgered with a populace so quick to please "god" and shun anyone who dosent. But hell what do i know im 19 and already fed up with this ****.

If you don't get it by now then you are beyond my help. I cannot make people see things they are incapable of seeing. As I have said before, I am interested in preserving the rights of all, not just gays. I have no agenda except Equality for ALL, not just gays or not just religion. Pass Prop 8 and then give Civil Unions all of the same rights under State Law that traditional married couples receive. That would respect all rights and give equality for ALL. Stop being so selfish and think about people other than yourself.

[Kyle B]

The issues that people are presenting in an attempt to clarify their reasons for voting "yes" on prop 8 are getting more desperate as the time gets closer. "If gay people adopt a child then that child will turn out gay"....yes that totally correct...pffff, if you have made yourself believe something like that then I have something to tell you....you're an idealistcly biased fool. Regardless of you parents opinion on whats best for you're kids, how long till they stop listening? I was about 14 when my parents opinion of right and wrong stopped detering me from making decisions on my own. And i expect, for most kids thats how it works, "gay's" (for lack of a better term i suppose, not trying to be demeaning just trying to get a point across) dont sprout out of thin air if you didn't realize, they came from straight parents across the world, and after awhile, you're children will make a decision for themselves, its their live's after all. Also I've seen alot of religous (bull****) in all of these prop 8 related threads. I'm sorry but there is no such infringment of religous anything going on....and like I stated in a previous thread "religous freedom is too secured". You people act as if were burning down churches and killing children with crucifix's, you can be religous all you want.(Everyone's to afraid to say anything against the church's anyways) But you know what if homosexuals are abominations in "god's" eye's (stated in alot of threads over these last few days) then you're a bunch of zealotous, close minded, fictional effigy worshipping dumbasses. You don't call you're fellow man or women an abomination, and you sure as hell dont allow their right's to be shunned because it goes against whatever the hell it is that you think you know. I'm not even twenty years old yet and i can see that. And to all of the people that I've heard about in the news that have locked themselves in churches, and are fasting without sleep, until this prop is voted "yes" on, then ill be so happy to see you come out defeated, skinny, and tired. Peace and Love

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by LASam

Are churches current REQUIRED to perform gay marriages? If not, then how are religious freedoms being infringed upon?

Not yet...the war will not stop and the onslaught will not stop until religion is banned in this country. All you have to do is look what has happened to religion in Europe. But then, if your goal is to return America into the European fold after 250 years of freedom then you are getting what you want.