The OFFICIAL Proposition 8 Thread: READ HERE FIRST (San Diego: buy, move)

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by tangodoodles

I have, for my entire life up until adulthood, been a member of the oldest organized Christian faith (for those just tuning in, that would be Catholicism). I have learned that religion, to be successful, wins the hearts and minds of its followers through gentle persuasion. When people tell me that God hates or wants to subjugate people to a lower social status, I realize I am dealing with people who don't really get religion. It must exist in their lives solely for the purpose of mending their broken psychological conditions. Men who judge others in the name of God are the greatest sinners in the eyes of God.

The freedom of religion guaranteed by our Constitution allows people to believe in the just, loving principals taught by Christ on the one hand, or the frantic, narrow-minded angry God of zealots on the other. Not only that, our Constitution allows Buddhists, Muslims, Sikhs, and Animists equality of freedom to believe as they believe. Religious tolerance in this country must encompass more than one phrase from the Bible in order to truly be tolerance. It is sad that your worldview makes you believe that your individualized, home grown religion is of greater importance than any other manner or method of religion.

One of the great lessons of persuasion: you cannot persuade those who do not listen. You can accuse me of not listening but I've heard your intolerant statements made under the guise of freedom of religion and I still hear them for what they are, bigotry and hatred. No matter how much damage you wish to do to others' rights in the name of your rights, no man may yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

Again...you cannot just redefine what religion is based on your own views. It doesn't work that way. Either you fit in as a Catholic or you move on to a church that is more in line with your views. I would promise you that you are not a true catholic as the Pope himself has denounced gay marriage, so how would you as a catholic reconcile that?? You scream "Fire" every time you call someone a bigot for being FOR Prop 8...agenda agenda! Men who judge others based on their own views are worse than those who judge based on God's Word. At least God is omnipotent while you are just a fallible human being. That is, unless you denounce the word of God as just written and created by mere men...in that case, you are just an atheist, or worse...an agnostic.

[sonarrat]

Originally Posted by Zapparulez

Again...you cannot just redefine what religion is based on your own views. It doesn't work that way. Either you fit in as a Catholic or you move on to a church that is more in line with your views. I would promise you that you are not a true catholic as the Pope himself has denounced gay marriage, so how would you as a catholic reconcile that?? You scream "Fire" every time you call someone a bigot for being FOR Prop 8...agenda agenda! Men who judge others based on their own views are worse than those who judge based on God's Word. At least God is omnipotent while you are just a fallible human being. That is, unless you denounce the word of God as just written and created by mere men...in that case, you are just an atheist, or worse...an agnostic.

There is so much conflict in this paragraph I don't even know where to begin. If you don't agree with Catholicism, you should change churches, and yet God's word is absolute. We should not judge other people based on our own views, except for those silly agnostics, ha ha agnostics. And it is we who are screaming every time a Yes on 8 person pokes out, even though you are the one who initially attacked the No on 8 folks who were just expressing their views after the other threads got locked. You've got deeper issues than Prop 8, so I am done arguing with you.

Before you try to tell people what to think, you should know what you think first.

[stan4]

Wait...you want to have the religious freedom to oppress other people?

That's weird.

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by stan4

Wait...you want to have the religious freedom to oppress other people?

That's weird.

No I want religious freedom to keep from being oppressed by people like you. There can be a compromise, but you zealots who hate religion do not believe in compromise to respect the opposition.

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by sonarrat

There is so much conflict in this paragraph I don't even know where to begin. If you don't agree with Catholicism, you should change churches, and yet God's word is absolute. We should not judge other people based on our own views, except for those silly agnostics, ha ha agnostics. And it is we who are screaming every time a Yes on 8 person pokes out, even though you are the one who initially attacked the No on 8 folks who were just expressing their views after the other threads got locked. You've got deeper issues than Prop 8, so I am done arguing with you.

Before you try to tell people what to think, you should know what you think first.

Good....because thus far you have only made yourself out to be a foolish simpleton. I am quite tired of talking to mindless drones. All I hear from you types is baaahh bbbaahhhh or cluck cluck cluck cluck. It gets old. It feels like the whole nation is turning into thoughtless morons. Where are the free thinking rationalist?!?!?!?!?!?!? I don't want to talk to any more narrow minded universalists!!!!

[Zapparulez]

I have just one more thing to say on this matter. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, I despise more than a person who refuses to think for him or herself. I despise people who vote party line on every single issue without every really looking deeply into it. To me, those types of people represent the scum of the Earth for they are to blame for the awful shape of our nation today and its decaying society. I loathe that type of voter and most of the Anti-Prop 8 drones on this forum have displayed their partisan ways and my contempt for them is reaching dangerous levels. Perhaps after Tuesday you will wish to find a compromise, for now you are so self consumed by your hate that you honestly believe the "rational" voters of California will give you a sweeping victory on Tuesday. You are about to find out why there is such a term as "The Silent Majority". And if by some miracle Prop 8 fails, I am sure my inbox will be flooded with the petty jeers and snickers of the immature and hate filled brains of the activists on this forum. You will find no such messages from me after Prop 8 passes on Tuesday.

[Zapparulez]

Who knows...maybe it is I who is driving the wrong way on a one way street, but throughout America's history it has always been a two way street. The day America becomes a one-way street like Europe has become, then that is the day America dies. If you saw things from a human aspect rather than an ideological aspect you would see how important it is that Prop 8 passes and also how important it is that the gay population be given the same rights under state law as traditional marriage couples received. Stop being selfish and consider the human aspect from both angles and if you have any inkling of rationality left you will see the advantage of finding a compromise. That is all I have to say. If my last two posts did not break through the hate(on both sides) then nothing will.

[dearvictoria]

Originally Posted by Zapparulez

Who knows...maybe it is I who is driving the wrong way on a one way street, but throughout America's history it has always been a two way street. The day America becomes a one-way street like Europe has become, then that is the day America dies. If you saw things from a human aspect rather than an ideological aspect you would see how important it is that Prop 8 passes and also how important it is that the gay population be given the same rights under state law as traditional marriage couples received. Stop being selfish and consider the human aspect from both angles and if you have any inkling of rationality left you will see the advantage of finding a compromise. That is all I have to say. If my last two posts did not break through the hate(on both sides) then nothing will.

I completely agree!

Marriage is a sacred RELIGIOUS ceremony indicating that a MAN and a WOMAN are bonded together as one. I don't deny people who choose a gay lifestyle the same rights that married people receive, but it should be under a partnership of some sort, NOT marriage. If you could have the same rights as marriage under a partnership, then why would you honestly care to even bother disrespecting a religion, or MANY religions? You obviously don't follow the religion to begin with, why is marriage even in any particular interest to you? Try getting a law allowing Gays to sign under a partnership of some kind, (that applys some of the laws that are applied in marriage), and really what difference would it make to you?

[stan4]

I can't believe all this is hoopla b/c of a word. On either side of the argument.

So are you seriously telling me that people who are currently against gay 'marriage' would be happy to vote for equal civil rights if gay people just called it something else? Like kerpakapookie or something? And allow the same inheritance rights, parental rights, property rights, etc?

Are you saying religious people are just trying to protect a word? And otherwise, they would be ok to let gays get kerpakapookied, adopt/raise children, etc?

[sonarrat]

Originally Posted by stan4

I can't believe all this is hoopla b/c of a word. On either side of the argument.

So are you seriously telling me that people who are currently against gay 'marriage' would be happy to vote for equal civil rights if gay people just called it something else? Like kerpakapookie or something? And allow the same inheritance rights, parental rights, property rights, etc?

Are you saying religious people are just trying to protect a word? And otherwise, they would be ok to let gays get kerpakapookied, adopt/raise children, etc?

Yes, in the end that really is all it is, because California's current gay marriages, the ones that have been getting all the press, don't carry any more rights than the civil unions did. Here's a write-up of how civil unions developed, gradually, in a spirit of incremental rollout: Independent Gay Forum - Spousal Rights by Increments: California Shows the Way (http://www.indegayforum.org/news/show/26682.html - broken link)

For this reason, I truly won't be too upset if Prop 8 passes. The stakes are low. The outpouring of anti-gay sentiment that this proposition has stirred up does upset me, though, and the tone I've heard from many supporters tells me that we still have a ways to go before society can accept the reality of modern California.