The OFFICIAL Proposition 8 Thread: READ HERE FIRST (Sacramento, Oakland: crime, exemption)

[stan4]

Nobody asks the most obvious question: Why should marriage confer rights?
Rights are individualistic. Just get marriage and all it's ramifications out of the government's control and this nonsense wont matter.

That is the 100% correct answer. People should also have the religious freedom to believe what they want without the government defining it (unless their practice infringes on someone elses' rights).
And the church's 'tax exempt' status should be revoked.

[Zapparulez]

Ok.

I have taken stock over Prop 4. I was too emotionally driven after initially reading about the subject. Government interference with my parenting duty is unacceptable to me, but I have to be careful about vote based on emotional response. I had to look rationally at the Prop and though I still support it, I think perhaps a provision should be set up to consider those children in highly volitile and dangerous situations. If there is a case of incest or fear of abuse then the child should be given an avenue of recourse that would allow the state to intervene to protect the child. The idea of the state sanctioning underage abortion without consent of all parents disgusts me. I apologize for my unreasoned outburst last night, but the original premise remains.

[Rhenzanite]

Originally Posted by stan4

Hm. Does anyone have an argument for Prop 8 that doesn't involve a book the majority of the world does not take seriously?

All you'll get is 'it's not natural', then someone will shoot back with 'it happens with wild animals in nature all the time'. Then, an argument about nature will ensue for 4-6 pages of posts.

Then, you'll get someone just saying it's 'not right because they can't produce children', then someone else will say 'well, I'm sterile, should I not be able to get married?'


Then, someone will say 'we have to protect the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman!' then, the inevitable 'What, the 50% divorce rate? How's that for sanctity'.


Then, someone will say sanctity means blessed and it will go right back into religion.


Same thing, different day

[18Montclair]

Oakland Police filed reports yesterday of death threats received at the homes of 2 Mormon Stake Presidents in Oakland over their support of Prop 8. A Stake President is similar to a Catholic Arch Bishop. Both of them are Tongan and this is being treated as a hate crime.

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by stan4

And the church's 'tax exempt' status should be revoked.

If your referring to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that organization has not given one penny to this campaign. All of the donations the media and opponents have deemed 'mormon money' actually came from 59,000 individual members who gave from their own resources, not the church's. And Im sure they all already pay taxes.

[sav858]

Originally Posted by Zapparulez

Ok.

I have taken stock over Prop 4. I was too emotionally driven after initially reading about the subject. Government interference with my parenting duty is unacceptable to me, but I have to be careful about vote based on emotional response. I had to look rationally at the Prop and though I still support it, I think perhaps a provision should be set up to consider those children in highly volitile and dangerous situations. If there is a case of incest or fear of abuse then the child should be given an avenue of recourse that would allow the state to intervene to protect the child. The idea of the state sanctioning underage abortion without consent of all parents disgusts me. I apologize for my unreasoned outburst last night, but the original premise remains.

I'm still confused, how is the govt interfering with your parenting duty as it is right now with regards to Prop 4?

I understand why you support it but I just don't get the whole "govt interference" argument. To me, supporting Prop 4 brings the govt in where it currently isn't.

[tangodoodles]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

If your referring to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that organization has not given one penny to this campaign. All of the donations the media and opponents have deemed 'mormon money' actually came from 59,000 individual members who gave from their own resources, not the church's. And Im sure they all already pay taxes.

But the church was advising members how to vote. I feel the same about the Catholic church, although it pains me a bit. When they include an insert in the Sunday bulletin telling people to "vote with their conscience" on Prop 8, I see that as voter coercion. There are some people, like my parents, who don't care what the church tells them but do what they feel is right and there are other people who maybe aren't that concerned about gay marriage but when they see that their church wants them to support Prop 8, they go ahead and do it. Fast food corporations create shell groups to fight any nutritional laws that might pass and cause them to lose money or, horror of horrors, make their food healthier. Churches do the same thing. They create "political action groups" to endorse political views without endangering their tax exempt statuses. It's a joke.

[sonarrat]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

Oakland Police filed reports yesterday of death threats received at the homes of 2 Mormon Stake Presidents in Oakland over their support of Prop 8. A Stake President is similar to a Catholic Arch Bishop. Both of them are Tongan and this is being treated as a hate crime.

That's sickening. This proposition has stirred up all of the wrong emotions.

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by sonarrat

That's sickening. This proposition has stirred up all of the wrong emotions.

I cant wait for this to be over. Win or Lose, this issue will never be resolved until "marriage" and government get divorced. LOL

That's my view.

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by tangodoodles

But the church was advising members how to vote. I feel the same about the Catholic church, although it pains me a bit. When they include an insert in the Sunday bulletin telling people to "vote with their conscience" on Prop 8, I see that as voter coercion. There are some people, like my parents, who don't care what the church tells them but do what they feel is right and there are other people who maybe aren't that concerned about gay marriage but when they see that their church wants them to support Prop 8, they go ahead and do it. Fast food corporations create shell groups to fight any nutritional laws that might pass and cause them to lose money or, horror of horrors, make their food healthier. Churches do the same thing. They create "political action groups" to endorse political views without endangering their tax exempt statuses. It's a joke.

No, but the Church(mormon, catholic or otherwise) is taking a moral stand on an issue that really shouldnt be part of the public arena to begin with. I am solidly behind separating church and state and until we do that in this case, we are never going to stop this bickering.