Before Leaving CA For "Greener" Pastures (or criticizing it), Get a Reality Check! (Palo Alto: wages, live)

[randian]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

I have no problem with higher compensation.

I do. The dangers of their jobs are irrelevant. What should a police officer or firefighter be paid? The minimum necessary to fill available slots with qualified candidates, just like a private sector job.

[OC Investor2]

Originally Posted by randian

I do. The dangers of their jobs are irrelevant. What should a police officer or firefighter be paid? The minimum necessary to fill available slots with qualified candidates, just like a private sector job.

That is something that also bothers me - particularly firmen. There are tons of people lined up for that job. They are paying WAY above what is needed to fill the role.

I believe the dangers inherint to the work justifies they get some premium to the straight supply & demand dictated wage, but it is out of control.

[randian]

Originally Posted by OC Investor2

I believe the dangers inherint to the work justifies they get some premium to the straight supply & demand dictated wage, but it is out of control.

I disagree. The only premium that matters is that demanded by the applicants. If they value that premium less than I think they should, so what? I don't pay them to be generous, I pay them to do a job. Indeed, I despise any politician who thinks it proper to be "generous" with other people's money. These jobs come with significant prestige and perks (and with cops, power and authority), which is why there are always plenty of applicants.

[majoun]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

If you believe that I benefitted from affgirmative action and political correctness as a state employee then you don't recognize either but I will have to give you credit for hubris.

There is more than one kind of political correctness. You may have benefited from having the political views you do when Reagan was in charge of the state, for example.

I didn't say you benefited from affirmative action, I said you are more tolerant of the great unwashed when they're conservative and Christian. (Not that I think you're a bible basher, but if you think the Ozarks epitomize the "real America" that definitely suggests you have socially conservative leanings. )

FWIW you'd probably be surprised to know my views on affirmative action. I think it should be converted from being race/ethnicity/gender based to being income based. There's no reason why the kids of some film star should get AA just because of their skin color or ethnic background while some poor white guy doesn't.

I adhere to no party line.

[MRPD114]

I was born (1952) and have lived all of my 56 years in California (Bay Area) and have witnessed the changes mentioned here, many good, many not so good. Most of you make some valid points, pro-con. In many ways the State has changed in the wrong direction and those of us who care about the state are quite frustrated with the politics. The border issue, for example, needs to be resolved now. I do feel for those non-residents from Mexico etc. seeking a better life, but the State cannot help without proper planning and resources.

Regarding the police officer/firefighter contracts, I am just now retiring from a 30+ year law enforcement career. I have helped negotiate police union contracts and can tell you this, yes we are well paid for what we do, but what we do is what most others cannot/will not do for various reasons. The shrinking pool of qualified applicants who can pass the rigorous application/background process, physical, mental, and agility testing, six month academy training and a lengthy, intense field training program before finally going out to the mean streets alone creates a supply and demand issue. Firefighters are in the same situation with lengthy testing and training to be hired for a dangerous and difficult job that most people cannot do.

If the issue was in a private company, the citizens wouldn't know or care much about it. But it is our tax dollars that pay us.

Studies have shown that those agencies that have the better contracts attract a larger pool of the best candidates and have fewer costly lawsuits and complaints in the long run, thus saving millions of dollars annually. We are the government employees that run towards the gunfire, riots, building fires etc. when all others run away (except the bad guys and the press).

And yes, our soldiers are very underpaid for what they do and the feds should compensate them adequately.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by majoun

There is more than one kind of political correctness. You may have benefited from having the political views you do when Reagan was in charge of the state, for example.

I didn't say you benefited from affirmative action, I said you are more tolerant of the great unwashed when they're conservative and Christian. (Not that I think you're a bible basher, but if you think the Ozarks epitomize the "real America" that definitely suggests you have socially conservative leanings. )

FWIW you'd probably be surprised to know my views on affirmative action. I think it should be converted from being race/ethnicity/gender based to being income based. There's no reason why the kids of some film star should get AA just because of their skin color or ethnic background while some poor white guy doesn't.

I adhere to no party line.

Nor do I. I'm a decline state who regularly votes both sides of the aisle.

Insofar as Ronald Reagan goes, I didn't enter state service until 1981 which was a bit after his time here. But for what it's worth, this is a picture of me back in a former life as the military escort for the Gipper:

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2244/7/36/1175481688/n1175481688_30236854_6885.jpg (broken link)

Missouri epitomizes "America" as it was way back when in many respects. The ones I appreciate and look forward to being in the midst of are its unabashed patriotism,

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs220.snc1/8730_1165521056279_1175481688_30513709_5019235_a.j pg (broken link)

its senses of history and tradition and the preponderant populace's desire to be self-sufficient, law-abiding and not dependent upon government to nanny it through life. And, yes, I know there are exceptions. That's the human condition. There are also some elements I'm not so fond of, especially when it comes to race relations.

As for the rest, money talks as it always has.

[ringwise]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

Truck drivers, construction workers, and conveneince store clerks also risk their lives to do their jobs. How much do they get paid?

The difference is that while any jobs have risks, police officers and firemen risk their lives to save OTHERS.

[Boxcar Overkill]

Originally Posted by ringwise

The difference is that while any jobs have risks, police officers and firemen risk their lives to save OTHERS.

And why does that make a difference in how much they should be paid?

[majoun]

Missouri epitomizes "America" as it was way back when in many respects. The ones I appreciate and look forward to being in the midst of are its unabashed patriotism, its senses of history and tradition

Which it's preserved to an extent (more below on this) because it's not been a major destination state since the mid 20th century and thus has not been flooded by newcomers who have essentially swept away its culture. California is not the only state that has suffered this. For example, Northern Virginia - a very important area in US history - is now no more "Southern" than New Jersey, and there are similar concerns in North Carolina that the same may happen there.

Let me cite a couple of examples of people I've known:

The one Californian I knew who moved to the Ozarks (because her husband was from there) was very miserable because the traditional culture she romanticized about had been in her words "destroyed by Wal-Mart". Subsequently she divorced and is now back in California although planning to leave (she's thinking about leaving the US altogether).

OTOH, I had another friend whose family was from the Ozarks, and he got tired of L.A. because of the costs, traffic, and liberal political culture, and wanted to go some place with open roads where he could ride his motorcycle and not have to worry about so many infringements upon freedom. He didn't even consider going back to Missouri, he went to Humboldt County where he's quite happy. (As I said earlier in the thread, there are large parts of California that still maintain their authentic Californianness, which for some might be an alternative to moving out of areas like SoCal and the Bay Area which have lost that Californianity and have essentially become colonies of the Northeast US and other countries.)

The point to this is that people have different values, different beliefs and have different preferences.

As for the patriotism part, yes, the Democrats in MO are of the Midwestern type which is quite different from the California type. There's nothing like Berkeley in Missouri (or most other US states). The most liberal neighborhood in Missouri, the St. Louis suburb of University City (or U-City as it's referred to), would be considered socially moderate by CA standards. OTOH the Republicans tend to be Bible-thumpers (although I'm sure there are exceptions, though probably not in the Ozarks). MO is a true swing state unlike CA today (although like what CA was from the mid-50s to the mid-80s, post-GOP dominance and pre-Dem dominance).

and the preponderant populace's desire to be self-sufficient, law-abiding and not dependent upon government to nanny it through life. And, yes, I know there are exceptions.

Particularly to the "law abiding" part.

That's the human condition. There are also some elements I'm not so fond of, especially when it comes to race relations.

As for the rest, money talks as it always has.

Fair enough and understood. You've made your position clear. No need for more argument.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by majoun

Fair enough and understood. You've made your position clear. No need for more argument.

No need at all. I know it's not Nirvana and I also know it's changed a great deal over the years like so many other places. However, moire elements have remained the same than in many other states and that I find appealing. We both do!

Funny you mentioned Northern VA. I lived there for several years back in the late 50s and absolutely loved it. Then I was stationed at the Pentagon in the mid-70s (was there during the entire, two-year Bicentennial celebration ~ WOW!). It had changed quite a bit but was still quite delightful. Now, it's horribly expensive and I doubt I'd recognize it. Same with North Carolina where i also lived in the 50s and the 60s. You do know your states, Majoun!