Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-16-2009, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 5,525,034 times
Reputation: 836

Advertisements

Schools are ranked, typically by multiple choice test scores. Most teachers in the trenches know that this is a one dimensional view of a multi dimensional experience.

There are those, notably politicians and those who are not educator who think that test scores are an accurate picture of student or school or teacher accomplishment.

I found a sentence that sums up very accurately what experienced educators know. I will quote it below. This quote comes from study of the effect of testing as a rating system.

If you are a parent, and you want your child to have quality education, please remember, test score are not a good indicator of accomplishment, and you have your child 3/4ths of the day, the school has your child 1/4 of the day. It is your responsibility to make sure your child is educated.

Ok, here is the quote, ponder it if you will.
Quote:
Superficial demonstrations of compliance with external mandates were more important than authentic intellectual engagement. Program participants [ie teachers and or students] frequently made the minimal possible effort to satisfy the requirements of what they percieved as routine bureaucratized tasks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-16-2009, 10:35 AM
 
1,312 posts, read 6,472,646 times
Reputation: 2036
Quote:
Superficial demonstrations of compliance with external mandates were more important than authentic intellectual engagement. Program participants [ie teachers and or students] frequently made the minimal possible effort to satisfy the requirements of what they percieved as routine bureaucratized tasks.
And for that they should be excused. After all in the world of post-school employment, life is entirely free of superficial demonstrations of compliance with external mandates and routine bureaucratized tasks. When you have a job, you only have to perform those tasks that seem interesting and intellectually engaging to you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 03:04 PM
 
25,619 posts, read 36,734,809 times
Reputation: 23296
Default Blah blah blah.

More mumbo jumbo from the protected class of tenured educators who are only looking to protect their own jobs instead of ensuring students have a quality eduction. That being said most of this problem is driven by our family hating, socialistic, religion hating idiot politicians trying to protect a 19th century decaying education system. GOD forbid the public schools and educators have any standards to live by like the rest of the private sector.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 5,525,034 times
Reputation: 836
This guy of course, is a product of the public education system, see, he has a point.

It is of course nonsense to think that:
A, multiple choice tests provide a standard.
B, Standards don't exist without multiple choice tests.
C, I am a tenured Educator.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:35 PM
 
1,312 posts, read 6,472,646 times
Reputation: 2036
Multiple choice test

1. What external mandate/s is the author ignoring in the following sentence?

Quote:
Program participants [ie teachers and or students] frequently made the minimal possible effort to satisfy the requirements of what they percieved as routine bureaucratized tasks.
A. "I" before "e," except after "c."...even in "perceived."

B. The abbreviation "i.e." requires periods and is not used with brackets or parentheses.

C. "And/or" needs to separated by a slash to show that the use of conjunctions is alternative rather than additive.

D. Assumptions on the relationship between student effort and perceived superficiality of tasks should not be made without citing the research that demonstrates the relationship.

E. All of the above

Performance-based assessment is like representative democracy: the only thing worse is everything else out there. Teacher-generated grades are quid pro quo at best and bribery at worst. Portfolios and essay tests measure innate creativity and intelligence, not achievement. Multiple-choice tests for schools make about as much sense as multiple-choice driver's tests -- they're not a holistic measure of the desired performance outcomes in and of themselves, but they provide a certain minimum standard for filtering out unacceptable levels of learning. And as drivers tests demonstrate, students can achieve on multiple choice tests when the motivation is present.

Last edited by Steve97415; 11-16-2009 at 06:48 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 07:09 PM
 
1,312 posts, read 6,472,646 times
Reputation: 2036
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldogdad View Post
most of this problem is driven by our family hating, socialistic, religion hating idiot politicians
So socialism is to blame for low educational achievement? You'd have a hard time proving that from the Top 5 List of best-educated nations from the OISR rankings:

1. Britain

2. Finland

3. Germany

4. North Korea

5. Canada
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-16-2009, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 5,525,034 times
Reputation: 836
Quote:
nd as drivers tests demonstrate, students can achieve on multiple choice tests when the motivation is present.
Do you have a correlation between driver's multiple choice test and driving ability?

Think about what the poor guy above said,
Quote:
GOD forbid the public schools and educators have any standards to live by like the rest of the private sector.
What sector of the private sector uses multiple choice tests to determine competency? Computer Programming? Welding? Dentistry?

When one's house catches afire would one like a crew straight out of the academy that aced all their tests, or a few old fire dogs that cain't spell fer bean, but have been putting out fires for decades.

Oh, regarding your grammar lesson, run the Gettysburg Address through your grammar checker, see what happens.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-17-2009, 09:56 AM
 
1,312 posts, read 6,472,646 times
Reputation: 2036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
Do you have a correlation between driver's multiple choice test and driving ability?
"ACCIDENT RATES PER MILLION MILES WERE 27.3 FOR DRIVERS WITH SCORES WITH 70-79%, 20.9 FOR THOSE WITH 80-89%, AND 20.6 FOR PERSONS WITH SCORES OF 90% OR HIGHER."

ACCIDENT AND VIOLATION EXPERIENCE AND DRIVING TEST SCORE - Publications Index

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
When one's house catches afire would one like a crew straight out of the academy that aced all their tests, or a few old fire dogs that cain't spell fer bean, but have been putting out fires for decades.
False dichotomy. Pragmatic competence and academic knowledge are not mutually exclusive. There's no reason you can't have both. When you need treatment for prostate cancer would you want the oncologist who has been practicing for 30 years, but who barely made it out of medical school to begin with, or the top-of-the-class intern who has only five years of clinical experience? If you were a defendant in a trial would you be comfortable knowing the judge was not very knowledgeable in the law, but had ample experience swinging a gavel and dressing down an attorney?

Quote:
What sector of the private sector uses multiple choice tests to determine competency?
Plenty...ever hear of professional licensure? You can't practice medicine or law, or become an educator or any of a hundred other professions without board certification that includes a multiple-choice exam among the qualification criteria. Most of life, in fact, involves choosing between a limited selection of options. You can't have anybody's job you want...you have this offer and maybe another one or two, if you're very lucky. You can't buy any house you see...this one on 2nd Ave. is for sale and so is this other one on Elm St. You can't marry anybody you see, you have a possible relationship of mutual attraction with a few other people. You can't have anything you want for breakfast...in the fridge are eggs, milk and orange juice. In the pantry is cereal...choose one. Being able to winnow out the best option among A, B, C or D is perhaps the most commonly encountered basic life skill. We all do it every day.

Quote:
Oh, regarding your grammar lesson, run the Gettysburg Address through your grammar checker, see what happens.
Lincoln wasn't delivering a critique on education at the time. When you're lambasting something, your assessment won't have much credibility if you don't demonstrate a level of personal competence that shows you to be in a position to judge the field of endeavor you aim to criticize.

Last edited by Steve97415; 11-17-2009 at 10:49 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-17-2009, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 5,525,034 times
Reputation: 836
I will concede your point on drivers tests for a bit, until I have a chance to review.

As far as your idea of board cert, etc. is concerned, I go back to this point, you can call it a false dichotomy, but, you are completely theoretical.

I, on the other hand, being the most interesting person in the world, have responded to fires with old firedogs who were barely literate, and with young bright and high test scoring academy grads. It is not a difficult choice as to who is the better choice.

But, back to the original point; this is pretty durned non arguable to anyone who has spent time teaching;
Quote:
Superficial demonstrations of compliance with external mandates were more important than authentic intellectual engagement.
And that, in a nutshell is the problem with school and student rankings via the medium of multiple choice testing.

Now, did I give you enough grammar errors to make the hair stand up on your head?
If not, I will try harder next response.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-17-2009, 11:30 AM
 
1,312 posts, read 6,472,646 times
Reputation: 2036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
But, back to the original point; this is pretty durned non arguable to anyone who has spent time teaching;
Quote:
Superficial demonstrations of compliance with external mandates were more important than authentic intellectual engagement.
You still have yet to play the trump card you need to play. It isn't sufficient to simply rail against something you don't like; you need a practical counter proposal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve97415
Performance-based assessment is like representative democracy: the only thing worse is everything else out there.
No form of assessment is perfectly valid. It would be great to have a crystal ball and it would be great to not need the assessment in the first place, but neither of those are realistic. We need some at-a-glance indicator that can serve as an initial gauge of success. If you don't like performance-based assessment using multiple-choice tests, what do you propose to use as a measure of typical peer performance at educational institutions?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2022 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top