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Old 04-29-2010, 09:23 AM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,471,006 times
Reputation: 6670

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE View Post
Why not cross the border into Mexico (for fun do it without papers.) See how much fun you have down there. You won't get a job, you won't buy any property, you won't get any medical attention. You won't get anything.

Why should it be any differant here in the USA.

For those that don't like what they are doing in Arizona, we also have the same laws here, they just are not enforced. We just don't have the backbone here in California.
So the answer now is that we should turn into Mexico? Or is it that we're starting to look too much like Mexico? Sometimes I get confused with these "anti-immigration" arguments.

 
Old 04-29-2010, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Living on the Coast in Oxnard CA
16,289 posts, read 32,378,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
So the answer now is that we should turn into Mexico? Or is it that we're starting to look too much like Mexico? Sometimes I get confused with these "anti-immigration" arguments.
Illegal immigrants, you know the people that are breaking the law in coming here, will get much better treatment here than those illegal immigrants that break the law by entering Mexico's borders. It is amazing that the people in Mexico will do what they want to with those entering their country illegally and no one blinks an eye, and yet they are upset that we don't let them enter here or when they get here do something about it.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 11:08 AM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,471,006 times
Reputation: 6670
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE View Post
Illegal immigrants, you know the people that are breaking the law in coming here, will get much better treatment here than those illegal immigrants that break the law by entering Mexico's borders. It is amazing that the people in Mexico will do what they want to with those entering their country illegally and no one blinks an eye, and yet they are upset that we don't let them enter here or when they get here do something about it.
Kidding aside, I just don't 'get' all the hysteria over this issue. And my sense is that the folks making such a big ruckus, have never been subjected to any direct "harm" by an "illegal", any more than I have, so what's the big deal?

What, the guy selling oranges on the streetcorner is threatening you to buy his stuff, "or else"?! Or the neighbor's gardener has been sizing up your house for a break-in? And all those folks busting their a$$ out in the fields so we can enjoy cheap veggies, are they secretly plotting to overthrow the guvmint?!!

No question there are alot of "illegals", and the laws need to be enforced (starting with employers). But in the larger scheme of things, compared to say, half a Trillion in bailouts for Wall Street crooks, or the $2 Billion a year lost in untaxed oil pumped out of this state, it seems like pretty small potatoes (no pun intended). Especially coming from so many folks I suspect actually have little real contact with any "non-anglos" to begin with. Or maybe that's what this is really all about!? Like the manufactured hysteria re: "welfare queens" of the "Raygun Era", when I believe we used to call them "scapegoats"....

Last edited by mateo45; 04-29-2010 at 12:22 PM..
 
Old 04-29-2010, 11:37 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
18,983 posts, read 32,706,548 times
Reputation: 13646
Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
No question there are alot of "illegals", and the laws need to be enforced (starting with employers). But in the larger scheme of things, compared to say, half a Trillion in bailouts for Wall Street crooks, or the $2 Billion a year in untaxed oil pumped out of this state, it seems like pretty small potatoes (no pun intended). Especially coming from so many folks I suspect actually have little real contact with any "non-anglos" to begin with. Or maybe that's what this is really all about!? Like the manufactured hysteria re: "welfare queens" of the "Raygun Era", when I believe we used to call them "scapegoats"....
The billions of dollars of public services that illegals use up every year is no small potatoes in a state that is burdened with huge budget deficits, crumbling infrastructure, failing schools, water shortages, etc.... They are not the sole cause or reason for all of our problems but are definitely a part of them.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 01:12 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,471,006 times
Reputation: 6670
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
The billions of dollars of public services that illegals use up every year is no small potatoes in a state that is burdened with huge budget deficits, crumbling infrastructure, failing schools, water shortages, etc.... They are not the sole cause or reason for all of our problems but are definitely a part of them.
Way exaggerated, if not outright false. The 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education. And because illegal immigrants aren't eligible for most public services and live in fear of revealing themselves to government authorities, households headed by undocumented immigrants use less than half the amount of federal services that households headed by documented immigrants or citizens make use of.

And they pay taxes. The Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes. Undocumented workers are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security. Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States

Besides, unless you're using the over-inflated estimates of FAIR (Federation for American Immigration Reform, and known for its anti-illegal alien stance), the GAO has estimated that it costs Cali aprox. $1.3 billion annually to school the kids of illegal aliens.

Meanwhile, California is the only oil-producing state that doesn't tax the oil that's extracted there. That bit of lost revenue is estimated at over $1.5 Billion a year (and it'd be alot easier to collect)! Hmmm.... helping the kids of poor, hard-working families, or helping the profits of corporate oil companies..... gee, that's a tough choice, which one would you pick!?
 
Old 04-29-2010, 01:50 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
18,983 posts, read 32,706,548 times
Reputation: 13646
Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
Way exaggerated, if not outright false. The 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education. And because illegal immigrants aren't eligible for most public services and live in fear of revealing themselves to government authorities, households headed by undocumented immigrants use less than half the amount of federal services that households headed by documented immigrants or citizens make use of.
No, that is not exaggerated at all.

"State welfare officials estimate that cutting off payments to illegal immigrants for their U.S.-born children could save about $640 million annually if it survives legal challenges.California has roughly 2.7 million illegal residents, according to an April 2009 report from the authoritative Pew Hispanic Center, accounting for about 7% of the state's population. State officials estimate that they add between $4 billion and $6 billion in costs, primarily for prisons and jails, schools and emergency rooms. Beyond those services, the illegal population adds to the overall cost of other parts of local government, from police and fire protection to highway maintenance and libraries."

Deficit may trigger anti-illegal immigration ballot measure - Los Angeles Times

Quote:
And they pay taxes. The Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes. Undocumented workers are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security. Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States
So that's 25% - 50% that don't pay taxes.

Quote:
Besides, unless you're using the over-inflated estimates of FAIR (Federation for American Immigration Reform, and known for its anti-illegal alien stance), the GAO has estimated that it costs Cali aprox. $1.3 billion annually to school the kids of illegal aliens.
That report is 16 years old! Try using some updated #'s from this decade.

Quote:
Meanwhile, California is the only oil-producing state that doesn't tax the oil that's extracted there. That bit of lost revenue is estimated at over $1.5 Billion a year (and it'd be alot easier to collect)! Hmmm.... helping the kids of poor, hard-working families, or helping the profits of corporate oil companies..... gee, that's a tough choice, which one would you pick!?
Ok, that's a completely separate issue that doesn't negate all of the negative impacts illegal immigrants have, including driving down wages.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 02:27 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,471,006 times
Reputation: 6670
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Ok, that's a completely separate issue that doesn't negate all of the negative impacts illegal immigrants have, including driving down wages.
We can argue re: the "facts", and I'm not trying to turn this into another "immigration" thread. But either way, you still never answered my basic question. If this is really about "economics", then why get so worked up over just the one issue, but ignore all the other(s)?
 
Old 04-29-2010, 02:37 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
18,983 posts, read 32,706,548 times
Reputation: 13646
Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
We can argue re: the "facts", and I'm not trying to turn this into another "immigration" thread. But either way, you still never answered my basic question. If this is really about "economics", then why get so worked up over just the one issue, but ignore all the other(s)?
I agree somewhat, people tend to focus too much on just illegal immigration when there are other major fundamental issues behind CA's budget crisis and poorly ran govt. It's easier for people to just start blaming illegals for all of CA's problems when it's only a part of problem with this state. Either way, the issue shouldn't be ignored and something needs to be done about it but yes people tend to focus a little too much on it b/c it's easy and so visible. This thread has to do with illegal immigration so that's why the focus is on it.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Massachusetts
9,540 posts, read 16,548,408 times
Reputation: 14582
Quote:
Originally Posted by revelated View Post
I swear this - if the state of California does boycott Arizona I'll move there. Believe you me. That's BS - Arizona is doing what California and Texas should have done AGES ago. Instead of welcoming illegals with nonsense like...


YouTube - California - Find yourself here


How about actually stepping up to try and fix the problem, Governator?

I agree.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Massachusetts
9,540 posts, read 16,548,408 times
Reputation: 14582
There is a checkpoint some 40 or 50 miles north of the Calif/Mexican border at San Diego. The checkpoint is around Oceanside I think. I was under the impression the police were checking for illegals at that checkpoint and have for decades. So whats the beef with AZ. One would have to live in a bubble to not know there is a serious problem in America, when millions of illegal people are allowed to wander about. Getting all types of services and taking jobs they are not even paid minimum wage. The whole set up is a national disgrace, and much of it is to allow cheap labor into the country.

I don't blame AZ one bit actually I give them alot of credit to stand up to the Feds and let them know enough is enough.
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