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You beat me to it, ed. I lived in Detroit for years, and I'm quite familiar with Windsor. You are absolutely right; a comparison between Detroit with Windsor? Demographically speaking, there's simply no way to compare the two cities. None.
It becomes a little difficult to defend a Michael Moore example. But, no one is comparing Windsor and Detroit. If you watch the movie, the guy from Detroit simply states that he feels safer (as a black) guy in Windsor, Canada. That's it.
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And yes, sandman, Detroit is a segregated city. In fact, it's the most segregated large city in the US. But I lived in one of the "super-rich" suburbs, and the black population is still significantly larger there than it is in most major Canadian cities. What's the black population where you live? And just as a matter of interest, where else have you lived?
Hah! On one hand you say that Detroit is the most segregated city. Then you say that significant proportion of the black population resides in the rich areas. How can both be true?
If Detroit is 80% Black, would you see at least 20% black residents in areas like Bloomfield Hills? Not a chance!
And how are you making this comparison to "most Canadian cities"? Can you provide some evidence?
And frankly, where I have lived has nothing to do with this debate especially if we use facts/evidence in a truthful manner. And if you must know, I lived for over 2 years in Ann Arbor. As you may know, University of Michigan does a lot of research on Detroit economics and racial issues. I have read many published articles on this topic and will be happy to pull up some original research for you if you like ... you seem to have a lot of misconceptions.
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Halifax is one Canadian city with an historically significant black population, most of whom are descended from freed US slaves. I'm sure you know about the racial segregation in Halifax's past.
Halifax's past? You want me to defend historical mistakes? The list on every side is un-ending.
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To answer the question this thread poses: Canadians are well-intentioned, and they do try to be racially aware, but they are NOT less racist than Americans. I never believed it before I lived in the US, and I certainly don't believe it now. Both countries have a lot of work to do, but at least the US deals with the issue openly.
You are right. A lot of progress needs to be made. Canadians or Americans are not a monolith. So I don't know who is more racist. Frankly, it is a ridiculous question.
Hah! On one hand you say that Detroit is the most segregated city. Then you say that significant proportion of the black population resides in the rich areas. How can both be true?
If Detroit is 80% Black, would you see at least 20% black residents in areas like Bloomfield Hills? Not a chance!
And how are you making this comparison to "most Canadian cities"? Can you provide some evidence?.
No, Sandman. I said that even in many suburbs of Detroit, there are larger black populations than there are in most Canadian cities. That is what I said.
Bloomfield Hills' population isn't 20% black, that is correct (and obvious). But Southfield's certainly is (I'd say it's at least 2/3 of the pop). In Farmington Hills (where I lived), the black pop is around 15-20%, as of 2014, and in West Bloomfield (where I worked for years), I'm guessing about 15% now. Oak Park; at least 50% of the pop; Highland Park, at least 60%; Auburn Hills, maybe around 20%; Mount Clemens, easily 20% of the pop.
All of those suburbs, you'll notice, have black populations of at least 15%, which is higher than that of Toronto (probably not much more than 10%) with the largest black pop in Canada. If you'd like, I can certainly pull up some stats and provide links, but, quite frankly, I KNOW that I'm right.
I lived there, worked there, went to school there, volunteered there, etc, for 14 years. Plus, in my field of work, I often had to refer to sources such as the Census Bureau for research purposes, so I became pretty familiar with the numbers. Moreover, I saw first hand the changing demographics across Metro Detroit in those 14 years, as more and more Detroiters left the city for the suburbs. Bear in mind, too, that since discussion on this thread seems to focus on comparisons of black populations, that is what I've been talking about. But there are other large demographic groups in Metro Detroit that have made, and continue to make, very noticeable cultural shifts in Metro Detroit, as compared to Canadian cities.
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Originally Posted by sandman249
And frankly, where I have lived has nothing to do with this debate especially if we use facts/evidence in a truthful manner. And if you must know, I lived for over 2 years in Ann Arbor. As you may know, University of Michigan does a lot of research on Detroit economics and racial issues. I have read many published articles on this topic and will be happy to pull up some original research for you if you like ... you seem to have a lot of misconceptions.
Where you have lived DOES have something to do with this debate. Unless a person has lived in both countries, then I don't know how he/she can make any kind of a first-hand comparison. Okay, you lived in Ann Arbor for a couple of years, I'll give ya that, though AA is pretty white, and 2 years isn't long.
That's so nice of you to offer, but it's not necessary to provide research. I'm an academic librarian (went to graduate school at another MI university) so I'm quite capable of conducting my own research. But thanks!
I have misconceptions? Ya know, I can tell that you're a young guy, probably in your 20s, or barely out of them. You have that exhausting need to argue (btw, that's the second post you've addressed to me that began with "Hah!" Please stop).
Last edited by newdixiegirl; 10-21-2014 at 04:10 PM..
I am sorry but that is a cop out. Why should we have to wait until Toronto is even more diverse to see any movement or any traction? What breakthroughs have you noted out of curiosity, other than anecdotal observations about your company.
Olivia Chow is not a stellar candidate, but have you seen who she is running against? One out of the closet racist, who throws around as many racial slurs as his brother in private. Then Tory, who stood up in front of a group in Jane n Finch and said flat out that White Privilege does not exist. Are there two any more racially obtuse people on the planet? They are representing the city that says "diversity is our strength". Do you not even remotely find something completely wrong about that?
As far as the personal bullsh%t you noted above, stick to the topic at hand. You have the personal choice to respond to me or not. If you believe I have nothing of value to add to a racial discussion on Canada, then please feel free to ignore me.
wow - not sure where to start or even begin with this.. Talk about someone taking things way out of context.. Anyway I think i'm leaning to the last part of your post which is just to ignore quite frankly.. Your obsession with racial inequality in Toronto ONLY is rather disturbing and it very apparent.. You talk about opening the eyes of others to issues in Toronto - how about you open your eyes and be honest about the issues in more place than one.. Anyway, if you are the type that can't bridge the gap with someone like myself - you will have a hard time doing so with anyone and a big part of bridging gaps is to start becoming more objective about racial inequality that exists in places other than just the one you grew up in. The only people who are going to champion your idea that the U.S and all her cities is free from racial inequality is a delusional group of Americans who want to portray that very disingenuous sentiment or a naïve girl with rose coloured blinders on. Far from being objective in my books but if it makes y'all feel better than continue crapping on Toronto and Canada re racial inequality and be totally oblivious to the issues in y.o.b.y - be my guest it won't help your situation down there either anymore than sweeping things under the rug won't help us.
In final - Olivia Chow blew it - face it lol!! She had way more support than Tory.. only a few months ago - something happened clearly and it ain't because Torontonians suddenly woke up skin head.
Where did you live in the U.S.? Again? Oh yeah you haven't.
When were you a racial minority? You aren't.
So how come it seems that black people who have actually lived in both countries always say the same thing? Why do they always say what Edward is saying? And this includes black people from both countries who actually set out with a bias for Canada and initially believed wholeheartedly Canada was better in this regard yet one after another and make total 180 degree turnarounds once they have actually experienced living in both countries.
^ Can you answer why this is?
Because in my mind, at a certain point you have to ask yourself why this is and start examining the possibilities. Maybe they are conspiring? But far more likely all these unrelated people are telling the truth, no?
Ed doesn't represent all black people in Toronto... either those who still live in the city or those who have left - does he? Can you honestly say there aren't a large swath of African Americans who don't have many gripes about racial inequality in American cities? I like how you said 'it seems' that black people from both countries as opposed to anything objective... Anyway if you want to live the illusion that there is racial equality throughout the U.S than keep drinkin the American Kool Aid hun.. When you become objective and balanced with your posts get back to me - that goes for Ed too!
I have misconceptions? Ya know, I can tell that you're a young guy, probably in your 20s, or barely out of them. You have that exhausting need to argue (btw, that's the second post you've addressed to me that began with "Hah!" Please stop).
LOL .... how did you figure that out?
I don't mean to be snarky, but I think that we need to keep things in perspective. Some of the statements made in this thread by some posters is just plain wrong.
I would never question your knowledge of the Metro Detroit area. But being so close to everything can sometimes cloud your judgment.
AA is not Detroit and pretty white, yes. But that's my point. Walk into U of T and count the non-white faces and walk into U Michigan and count the non-white faces. I think you will find your answer.
I have never thought about racial segregation in Toronto because I don't even think that it is an issue. Has Toronto passed laws to stop and frisk minorities and check their immigration status? Is school segregation a big issue in Toronto? Does Toronto or Canada (in general) disproportionately lock up immigrants? What am I missing? I am asking this question with all sincerity ...
I'll give up on the "Hah" and will try my best not to argue about this anymore!
To answer the question this thread poses: Canadians are well-intentioned, and they do try to be racially aware, but they are NOT less racist than Americans. I never believed it before I lived in the US, and I certainly don't believe it now. Both countries have a lot of work to do, but at least the US deals with the issue openly.
I think you are largely right with this... I also think that we are dealing with this issue more and more openly as time goes by. In the case of Toronto, I think we are and we must and of course more needs to be done - Whites are going to be the minority in the city and as much as some like to see the glass half empty I take the opposite stand and say progress is being made and indeed it truly is.. This isn't to say progress is being made and so lets just go on autopilot but it seems some in here need to portray things as one way or the other and that isn't the case.
Anyway, I like having this discussion actually and I know we aren't perfect up here - but it would be nice to see some American or Expats (excluding yourself as you seem to be objective about this subject matter) be honest about the fact that there ARE racial inequality issues south of the 49th - it may be more 'out in the open' but how much has this translated in the grand scheme of things and is the U.S demonstrably more of a bastion for equality than Canada. I suspect each country checks off certain criteria in the racial equality arena more so than others.. Additionally, it varies from place to place and region to region as both countries are huge and the experiences one goes through will vary quite substantially even in sub-regions within each country.
wow - not sure where to start or even begin with this.. Talk about someone taking things way out of context.. Anyway I think i'm leaning to the last part of your post which is just to ignore quite frankly.. Your obsession with racial inequality in Toronto ONLY is rather disturbing and it very apparent.. You talk about opening the eyes of others to issues in Toronto - how about you open your eyes and be honest about the issues in more place than one.. Anyway, if you are the type that can't bridge the gap with someone like myself - you will have a hard time doing so with anyone and a big part of bridging gaps is to start becoming more objective about racial inequality that exists in places other than just the one you grew up in. The only people who are going to champion your idea that the U.S and all her cities is free from racial inequality is a delusional group of Americans who want to portray that very disingenuous sentiment or a naïve girl with rose coloured blinders on. Far from being objective in my books but if it makes y'all feel better than continue crapping on Toronto and Canada re racial inequality and be totally oblivious to the issues in y.o.b.y - be my guest it won't help your situation down there either anymore than sweeping things under the rug won't help us.
In final - Olivia Chow blew it - face it lol!! She had way more support than Tory.. only a few months ago - something happened clearly and it ain't because Torontonians suddenly woke up skin head.
Congratulations on sinking to the lowest possible level and continuing to make it "personal". I'd rather pass on that and just allow you to do your thang homie.
One request though, would you point me to the post where I said the US did not have any racial problems? I would love to read something I know for a fact I never posted. Also why would I discuss racial issues directly with a white guy who has only lived in one city? You only know Toronto, so I speak to you about Toronto. What perspective can you possibly offer on another location?
"America deals with their racism openly"......say what?
Aside from over a hundred years of historical proof to the contrary with events that curdle the blood and prosecution of guilty parties taking decades to engineer carefully lest you upset the established hierarchy as witnessed in getting a KKKlucker to stand trial for a black church bombing and bringing to trial those who murdered three civil rights workers.
I guess that's why in a very short span of time you've seen suppressed anger bubble up like a giant case of hear-burn at the shooting deaths of two young blacks by police forces.
Justified shootings or not; it sure speaks about all that "openness" and "forthrightness" that the result is a huge release of frustration in the form of violence seemingly simmering just under the surface waiting for a trigger to be pulled.
Were racism indeed being dealt with in the U.S as openly as opined on here, it could be reasonably assumed it would take more than a single event to build that kind of anger.
Let's invite Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to discuss how openly they think Racism is being handled in the U.S. shall we? They are making a great living off of servicing the exact opposite perception among African Americans.
The NAACP got it's genesis from over fifty years of lynchings in the U.S. and Ida Wells along with other prominent blacks saying enough is enough. Some would have us believe racism in Halifax is a comparator?
Sandman, Fusion; don't waste any more time on this stupid thread. Reality will not be served by preaching reason to those entrenched in the numero-uno agenda.
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