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Do you think they'd be justified in going nuts, however, about this one particular issue of bilingualism?
I've heard rumors of certain states wanting to make the official language of certain government departments English not sure what the local population would think of such an event but you can bet Rush Limbaugh and the birther crowd would turn it into a Communist plot to take over the nation or some other conspiracy theory,
As you may have noticed i am totally against language laws as they are the suspension of civil rights and freedoms/liberty, i'm of the opinion you just speak whatever language is convenient in any given situation, in my situation if the situation i'm in is all French i'll speak French,if its all English i'll speak English and if i'm in a situation where none of the above apply i'll politely try to communicate the best i can.
Please provide one example of how there is officially sanctioned discrimination against members of the group? Policies in Quebec are meant to prevent English from taking over as the main language of large areas of the province, as was arguably in the process of happening not that long ago. Basically, it's all about preventing anglos from compelling others (mostly non-anglophones) to speak English - as they used to do in some instances - as opposed to preventing anglos from speaking and using English amongst themselves.
Quite the opposite actually of what was done to francophones in the other provinces - though this was some time ago, so everyone forgets or doesn't even know about it, but the effects (demographically, culturally and linguistically diminished francophone communities) are still with us.
Officially sanctioned discrimination in not being able to put up signage primarily in a non-French language, not being able to conduct business in a non-French language (unless it's underneath 50 people, or 11 if the PQ have their way, which I sincerely hope they do not). "Not that long ago" was in the early 1970s and beforehand, long before I was even born. I'd say that was long enough ago that you can't keep viewing it as just yesterday when English speakers dominated Quebec's business scene.
What the PQ's policies do, especially the proposed policy which would limit the number to 11 in English-operating businesses, is effectively crippling the English language in Quebec business. Not "promoting French", but crippling English (and all other languages too).
Allophones and Francophones who learn English aren't doing it because "anglos are compelling them to", they're doing it out of their own free volition. Who exactly within the Quebec anglo community is holding a stick over their heads and compelling them to learn English? A few isolated cases of managers of small businesses? Compare that to the way in which the government is trying to make it impossible to operate a business with more than 11 people in English. It's incomparable in terms of severity.
Actually I'd say what Quebec is doing to suppress English and what other provinces used to do to suppress French are incredibly similar.
I do want to say that I do appreciate your apparent concern for all of Canada's linguistic minority groups, and that you don't just focus on English in Quebec. I have had probably 58,577,433 discussions on this topics, and in 99% of them, people are completely focused on English in Quebec and couldn't give a damn about francophones outside Quebec. They often say so quite bluntly.
So cheers to you for being fair-minded and consistent. Of course, I think you probably know by now that I think you are mistaken when it comes to the endangerment and hardship the Anglo-Quebec (and Anglo-Montrealer more specifically) community is subjected to, but at least you recognize that things aren't always rosy for people who speak French in the ROC either.
Officially sanctioned discrimination in not being able to put up signage primarily in a non-French language, not being able to conduct business in a non-French language (unless it's underneath 50 people, or 11 if the PQ have their way, which I sincerely hope they do not). "Not that long ago" was in the early 1970s and beforehand, long before I was even born. I'd say that was long enough ago that you can't keep viewing it as just yesterday when English speakers dominated Quebec's business scene.
What the PQ's policies do, especially the proposed policy which would limit the number to 11 in English-operating businesses, is effectively crippling the English language in Quebec business. Not "promoting French", but crippling English (and all other languages too).
Allophones and Francophones who learn English aren't doing it because "anglos are compelling them to", they're doing it out of their own free volition. Who exactly within the Quebec anglo community is holding a stick over their heads and compelling them to learn English? A few isolated cases of managers of small businesses? Compare that to the way in which the government is trying to make it impossible to operate a business with more than 11 people in English. It's incomparable in terms of severity.
Actually I'd say what Quebec is doing to suppress English and what other provinces used to do to suppress French are incredibly similar.
They never really touched private businesses in the ROC - except maybe when it came to filling out government forms and paperwork which had to be in English.
If Quebec did the same as the other provinces did, it would have switched over every single school in Westmount, Beaconsfield and Shawville to French. It would have also switched all the English colleges to French, and McGill would have been forced to become bilingual with the priority on French rather than English programs.
Citizens would not have been able to fill out any governnment forms (like health cards, driver's licences, etc.) in English. Only French.
With all of that producing the effect of weakened anglophone community (or francophone in the ROC) either through outright assimilation or at producing generations with shaky native language skills, you wouldn't have to touch private businesses - things would have slowly taken care of themselves. Which is exactly what happened.
What the PQ's policies do, especially the proposed policy which would limit the number to 11 in English-operating businesses, is effectively crippling the English language in Quebec business. Not "promoting French", but crippling English (and all other languages too).
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To add/
Would appear to me that this policy is probably already curtailing businesses from moving to Quebec, to bring it down to 11 employees strikes me as a really dumb move.businesses thinking about relocating to Quebec will just go elsewhere if the top management or the guys with the ideas and money find out they are legally required to speak French in their own company.
Learning to speak French proficiently enough to conduct board meetings and dealings with local government bureaucracy and all manner of business in French isnt something you pick up overnight for some it could take years to master the required level of French needed to run a fair size company in Quebec, when the solution is as easy as just not moving to Quebec i'd suspect most companies would do just that.Kinda obvious who wins and who loses..
To add/
Would appear to me that this policy is probably already curtailing businesses from moving to Quebec, to bring it down to 11 employees strikes me as a really dumb move.businesses thinking about relocating to Quebec will just go elsewhere if the top management or the guys with the ideas and money find out they are legally required to speak French in their own company.
Learning to speak French proficiently enough to conduct board meetings and dealings with local government bureaucracy and all manner of business in French isnt something you pick up overnight for some it could take years to master the required level of French needed to run a fair size company in Quebec, when the solution is as easy as just not moving to Quebec i'd suspect most companies would do just that.Kinda obvious who wins and who loses..
Yes, indeed. With 50 employees, it may be possible for a number of industries to set up shop. With 11....not so likely.
However with a minority government, do you really think it's likely that the 11 employees law will actually be passed?
But when you look at the reality on the streets--signs, the languages in which people are speaking, the demographic changes--it's clear that there's far more of a sway toward Chinese in Richmond (and other parts of the greater Vancouver area too, as well as in the GTA) than English anywhere in Quebec.
Most of what you describe in Quebec are things that have existed for a long time. English may be a deeper part of Montreal society than Chinese in Vancouver, but my point is, the direction in which the trends are going indicates that Chinese in Vancouver is growing, while English in Montreal is either declining or remaining steady depending on how one views it. In Quebec, there is no demographic trend toward English. More immigrants are learning French now, and the Anglophone population is in steady decline. In the Vancouver area, the Chinese population and the portion who speak Chinese is a number that is only growing.
What is happening in Richmond is far more of an intrusion on the status quo. In Montreal, bilingualism has always been the status quo, if anything, French has become stronger in recent years and English has become weaker. In Richmond and Vancouver as a whole, Chinese is only growing stronger.
How many non-Chinese people in Greater Vancouver can speak Chinese? Not very many I'd say.
Seriously though, it is true that we are in a new era when it comes to immigrant languages. Because of communications technology and more frequent travel people aren't totally cut off from the old country and its language and culture like they were before. So that certainly opens up possibilities for continuity that were not there before. Assimilation to the host society may proceed more slowly in many cases.
That said, you probably need some level of education in order to maintain a language intergenerationally outside the family unit. This is especially true of Chinese languages like Mandarin and Cantonese which have writing systems that are basically "alien" to the one taught in our schools. Very few second-generation Chinese-Canadians (I've met quite a few from Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver) have the ability to read and write well in Chinese.
I do want to say that I do appreciate your apparent concern for all of Canada's linguistic minority groups, and that you don't just focus on English in Quebec. I have had probably 58,577,433 discussions on this topics, and in 99% of them, people are completely focused on English in Quebec and couldn't give a damn about francophones outside Quebec. They often say so quite bluntly.
So cheers to you for being fair-minded and consistent. Of course, I think you probably know by now that I think you are mistaken when it comes to the endangerment and hardship the Anglo-Quebec (and Anglo-Montrealer more specifically) community is subjected to, but at least you recognize that things aren't always rosy for people who speak French in the ROC either.
I think the big difference is that right now the hardships that the French in the ROC endure are mostly due to demographic and social factors, not anything that the federal or provincial governments are doing to deliberately suppress them. But yes, when looking at sheer numbers, there is a problem with linguistic assimilation. I'm not sure if it's slowed down or not in recent years but I could definitely see more assimilation occurring in parts of Ontario and New Brunswick. In particular in places like Sudbury and Timmins and North Bay where Francophones are the minority. I've heard from some sources that the assimilation into English has slowed down lately, but it still may be the overall trend. And it's unfortunate.
Now I think it's different depending on the region. If you're of Franco background in somewhere with a small French speaking community like Welland or Lakeshore that is far away from anywhere in which Francophones constitute a significant population, I don't think they can be blamed for losing their language. But I think Francophones in places like Sudbury, Timmins, Ottawa and Moncton should try their best to preserve it. I believe the viability of a language is something that geography and demographics determine. I think where they have a fighting chance and where they have some geographical connection to French Canada they should try to preserve it.
Similarly, on the other foot, I think the vast majority of Anglo Quebecers live in regions where trying to preserve their language, rather than assimilating, makes sense from a geographical and demographic standpoint (due to numbers and proximity to other Anglo regions...ie Montreal, Outaouais, Eastern Townships, Gaspe, Iles de la Madelaine, the coast near Labrador). However, the ones in very linguistically isolated communities like in Shannon near Quebec City, I couldn't blame if they just assimilated into French.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
They never really touched private businesses in the ROC - except maybe when it came to filling out government forms and paperwork which had to be in English.
If Quebec did the same as the other provinces did, it would have switched over every single school in Westmount, Beaconsfield and Shawville to French. It would have also switched all the English colleges to French, and McGill would have been forced to become bilingual with the priority on French rather than English programs.
Citizens would not have been able to fill out any governnment forms (like health cards, driver's licences, etc.) in English. Only French.
With all of that producing the effect of weakened anglophone community (or francophone in the ROC) either through outright assimilation or at producing generations with shaky native language skills, you wouldn't have to touch private businesses - things would have slowly taken care of themselves. Which is exactly what happened.
Different methods but same attitude and same intended results.
Also the fact is, what the PQ have done has indeed produced a weakened Anglo community in Quebec. Anglos used to be as much as 30% of the province. A loss equivalent to that of Francophones in other provinces (ie Ontario). So in terms of demographic loss, the decline actually has been pretty equivalent.
Last edited by Redrum237; 10-01-2012 at 01:25 PM..
Also the fact is, what the PQ have done has indeed produced a weakened Anglo community in Quebec. Anglos used to be as much as 30% of the province. A loss equivalent to that of Francophones in other provinces (ie Ontario). So in terms of demographic loss, the decline actually has been pretty equivalent.
The highest figure I could find was 25% in 1851.
It has pretty much steadily declined since then - due primarily to outmigration.
I think as recently as 1970 anglos were around 15% of the population of Quebec.
A big difference is that the anglo population has declined generally due to outmigration, and assimilation has been minimal. Also, anglo outmigration has been a constant through Quebec history, and was happening way before anyone had ever heard of the PQ in the late 60s.
Francophone decline in the ROC has been mostly due to assimilation. The people are still there - it's just that they don't speak any French any more.
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