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Old 11-07-2012, 03:22 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,869 posts, read 10,466,407 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint View Post
Base on the chart above, why should we be copying any of them when we are doing better on at least one important measure, cancer survival rates?


Canada a leader in cancer survival | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun
Because that's only one measure of a healthcare system. We're way behind in wait times, adverse drug reaction reporting, organizational inefficiencies, and costs. We should look to retain our strengths while improving the system where it's weak so we can craft the best system there can be.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Being free doesn't mean it is the best way to do things. It simply means others are paying for it.
If you incur huge medical costs, you are supposed to pay at least part of it. Offering anything completely free is almost always a bad idea.
You mean, in Canada "others" pay for it, but in the USA, Blue Cross/Blue Shield and Mutual of Omaha pay for it? In Canada, health care is not free. It varies by province (there is no "national" health care in Canada), you pay an annual premium or a copay or both.

Last edited by jtur88; 11-08-2012 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Leeds, UK
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No healthcare system is free, but most are paid for through taxation of course.

People from all over the world, even in Europe, go to the US for certain treatments, because certain diseases are so rare, that only a handful of experts exist that can treat it, and they are often in the US.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:57 PM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,622,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You mean, in Canada "others" pay for it, but in the USA, Blue Cross/Blue Shield and Mutual of Omaha pay for it? In Canada, health care is not free. It varies by province (there is no "national" health care in Canada), you pay an annual premium or a copay or both.
Of course I know health care is not free. I pay 35% income tax and 13% sales tax, plus $600 prenium for that every year. That's half of my income and I don't need you to remind me it is not free.

I mean, even after the socialised systen, which I don't oppose, one should make a small payment each time she visits the doctor, for the purpose of reducing unnecessary doctor's visit.

If $10 is charged for each visit, those crazy mothers won't take their sons to doctors for a common cold and sneeze any more, but simply go to Shoppers to buy some OTC medicine, stay home and drink a lot of liquid. Those elderly with nothing but time won't wait in line to see their physicians for a backpain which they had for 10 years and for which there is no solution as it is simply a result of aging.

that's all I am saying. Don't visit the doctor unless you are really sick and only the doctor can help. Otherwise, don't waste their time. There are patients who do need real help, other than a cold or a backpain.

about 50% of the public expense goes to health care, but not all of it is necessary. A lot can be saved to make the system more efficient and in the end, everyone wins.
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:00 PM
 
1,264 posts, read 3,847,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You mean, in Canada "others" pay for it, but in the USA, Blue Cross/Blue Shield and Mutual of Omaha pay for it? In Canada, health care is not free. It varies by province (there is no "national" health care in Canada), you pay an annual premium or a copay or both.
Alberta has done away with the health premiums. They do not have sales tax too.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Canada
7,233 posts, read 9,205,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Of course I know health care is not free. I pay 35% income tax and 13% sales tax, plus $600 prenium for that every year. That's half of my income and I don't need you to remind me it is not free.

I mean, even after the socialised systen, which I don't oppose, one should make a small payment each time she visits the doctor, for the purpose of reducing unnecessary doctor's visit.

If $10 is charged for each visit, those crazy mothers won't take their sons to doctors for a common cold and sneeze any more, but simply go to Shoppers to buy some OTC medicine, stay home and drink a lot of liquid. Those elderly with nothing but time won't wait in line to see their physicians for a backpain which they had for 10 years and for which there is no solution as it is simply a result of aging.

that's all I am saying. Don't visit the doctor unless you are really sick and only the doctor can help. Otherwise, don't waste their time. There are patients who do need real help, other than a cold or a backpain.

about 50% of the public expense goes to health care, but not all of it is necessary. A lot can be saved to make the system more efficient and in the end, everyone wins.

The bolded part I agree with with one caveat - there should be a way for people who have a genuine medical need but to whom even $10 would present a hardship, to receive medical care for no fee.

I have paced a lot of waiting rooms while my husband and more recently, my father, received care. Their health issues (strokes and heart attacks) were real emergencies and they were seen right away, but there are a lot of people in the local hospital emergency ward who seem to see it as a way to spend a Saturday or Sunday night. They waited for hours. I think that is where the idea of long waiting times comes from, at least in this province - it comes from people who should have stuck a bandaid on a cut or had some tea and sucked it up.

I am not basing my idea of the non-emergencies on what I see since some emergencies aren't obvious (the back pain you include in your post, however, is not to be dismissed in some cases - my husband turned out to have a spinal tumour) but from conversations with people in the waiting room. People go to the doctor for things that would never occur to me. And the danger in people using emergency rooms or doctors for those things is that health care professionals might become cynical and not recognise a real emergency when they see one, and the other side effect is in long waiting times or an inability to find a family doctor taking new patients.

One question - when you refer to a $600 premium, are you talking about additional insurance like Blue Cross?
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:38 PM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,622,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
The bolded part I agree with with one caveat - there should be a way for people who have a genuine medical need but to whom even $10 would present a hardship, to receive medical care for no fee.

I have paced a lot of waiting rooms while my husband and more recently, my father, received care. Their health issues (strokes and heart attacks) were real emergencies and they were seen right away, but there are a lot of people in the local hospital emergency ward who seem to see it as a way to spend a Saturday or Sunday night. They waited for hours. I think that is where the idea of long waiting times comes from, at least in this province - it comes from people who should have stuck a bandaid on a cut or had some tea and sucked it up.

I am not basing my idea of the non-emergencies on what I see since some emergencies aren't obvious (the back pain you include in your post, however, is not to be dismissed in some cases - my husband turned out to have a spinal tumour) but from conversations with people in the waiting room. People go to the doctor for things that would never occur to me. And the danger in people using emergency rooms or doctors for those things is that health care professionals might become cynical and not recognise a real emergency when they see one, and the other side effect is in long waiting times or an inability to find a family doctor taking new patients.

One question - when you refer to a $600 premium, are you talking about additional insurance like Blue Cross?
Yes, ER is being abused in Canada's medical system. Since ER is completely free and requires no appointment, many seem to use it as a fast way of getting medical attention, even when it is not urgent. There should be a way to prevent this happening. Like you said, it makes doctors and nurse not to take things seriously when it could be a real emergency.

People are selfish by nature, at least most of us. Therefore, a system can never rely on the patient's conscience to do the best thing. Rather it should be designed so that selfish behavior results in negative consequence or incurs big costs.

I doubt a $10 will be difficult for patients to come up with. I mean it only applies to the first time treatment, and if the doctor thinks it is necessary, following visits are free. If one wants an appointment himself again, he is gonna pay for that.

Has anyone ever proposed a small copayment system? It may amaze us how much more efficiency it will bring to the system and how must unnecessary cost can be saved. People will complain pretending $10 will make their lives so much harder, as they do whenever there is any cost. They just need to suck it up and eventually everyone in the system ends up obtaining better medical care.

I think the $600 something premium is reflected in my tax return. It can be as high as $900 for some.

Ontario Health Premium
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:27 PM
 
10,553 posts, read 9,600,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
The bolded part I agree with with one caveat - there should be a way for people who have a genuine medical need but to whom even $10 would present a hardship, to receive medical care for no fee.

I have paced a lot of waiting rooms while my husband and more recently, my father, received care. Their health issues (strokes and heart attacks) were real emergencies and they were seen right away, but there are a lot of people in the local hospital emergency ward who seem to see it as a way to spend a Saturday or Sunday night. They waited for hours. I think that is where the idea of long waiting times comes from, at least in this province - it comes from people who should have stuck a bandaid on a cut or had some tea and sucked it up.

I am not basing my idea of the non-emergencies on what I see since some emergencies aren't obvious (the back pain you include in your post, however, is not to be dismissed in some cases - my husband turned out to have a spinal tumour) but from conversations with people in the waiting room. People go to the doctor for things that would never occur to me. And the danger in people using emergency rooms or doctors for those things is that health care professionals might become cynical and not recognise a real emergency when they see one, and the other side effect is in long waiting times or an inability to find a family doctor taking new patients.

One question - when you refer to a $600 premium, are you talking about additional insurance like Blue Cross?
People may go to the emergency room for non-emergencies because they don't have a family doctor and the walk-in clinics are closed, and also the walk-ins provided very limited care.

Or they are on a waiting list months long to see a specialist so that something that wasn't an emergency becomes one. It took me months to get a family doctor here in Southern Ontario. I have had to wait more than 9 months to see a specialist and had a family member wait a year for eye surgery. During that wait time she had pressure build up in her eye; luckily she had a family doctor, but if she had not, she would have gone to the emergency room.

It's not a sign of people's stupidity that they are at the emergency room for non-emergencies---nobody wants to sit there all day---, it's a sign of a healthcare system shortcomings.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:45 PM
 
242 posts, read 508,233 times
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A co-worker of mine suffered a major heart attack two weeks ago. He is 65 years old and his wife drove him to the hospital (she's a nurse). Once at the hospital, he was taken into the intensive care unit and our great doctors ended up saving his life. It turns out his arteries were plugged solid and he would need a quadruple bypass. The hospital organized to have this operation performed the next day. So 24 hours later, he received the surgery successfully and the next day was sent home. A doctor went to his house to monitor him and he is being cared for at home. All of this cost my colleague and his family $0. They never asked for an insurance slip, or a credit card. It was completely covered like it is for any Canadian regardless of income, lifestyle, etc. Now Americans will say we pay for this in taxes and that's true. But in reality, Americans actually pay more per person in healthcare taxes than Canadians.

I am telling this story because it shows how Canadian health care DOES work most of the time. It's not perfect and can for sure be better, but in times of dire need... the system does what it's meant to do. To take in a man who suffered a major heart attack, keep him alive, sustained, and then perform a quadruple bypass and send him home all within 48 hours... now that is nothing to insult.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Canada
7,233 posts, read 9,205,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint View Post
People may go to the emergency room for non-emergencies because they don't have a family doctor and the walk-in clinics are closed, and also the walk-ins provided very limited care.

Or they are on a waiting list months long to see a specialist so that something that wasn't an emergency becomes one. It took me months to get a family doctor here in Southern Ontario. I have had to wait more than 9 months to see a specialist and had a family member wait a year for eye surgery. During that wait time she had pressure build up in her eye; luckily she had a family doctor, but if she had not, she would have gone to the emergency room.

It's not a sign of people's stupidity that they are at the emergency room for non-emergencies---nobody wants to sit there all day---, it's a sign of a healthcare system shortcomings.
If it isn't an emergency, although there might be exceptions because there are always exceptions to every rule, they can wait for a walk-in clinic to open. Every emergency room I've ever been in has had a list of what it considers to be an emergency and given how many people engage in endless chatter, I see no other reason for a lot of people to end up in the emergency room because they have nothing better to do with their time.

We've had emergency rooms close temporarily due to the large number of people who clog up the system. There are indeed health care system shortcomings but there are also people shortcomings in that some people do not seem to be able to differentiate between an emergency and a non-emergency.

ETA: here is a link that summarizes some of the reasons why there is a doctor shortage in Canada. In the 90s, it was feared that Canada would have an excess of doctors, and so they limited admissions to medical schools. This won't be fixed overnight, and the article also addresses how hard a time foreign doctors have obtaining their Canadian credentials, so that kind of contradicts arguments you've made elsewhere about what an abundance of foreign doctors we have. As does this article in showing the large percentage of places that are reserved for residents.

Last edited by netwit; 11-08-2012 at 09:13 PM..
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