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Old 02-13-2013, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,876 posts, read 38,019,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Was Brian Mulroney popular in Quebec? I didn't learn until recently that he came from a small town and was bilingual, but he was also a friend of President Reagan, leading some people (myself included) to think he was the Canadian Reagan.
Brian Mulroney was from Baie-Comeau, a massively francophone city on Quebec's north shore. His family was anglo and he spoke English at home but he grew up speaking French everywhere else.

He was flawlessly bilingual and "fit in" perfectly with either language group in Canada.
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Francophone Prime Ministers' loyalties are never suspected, as if you're the type to join a federalist political party and work your way up to party leader - well, if that doesn't prove you're a federalist, literally nothing else possibly could. Honestly, if you say you're a federalist people will tend to believe you unless there's some solid reason to suspect you're lying, like maybe you're married to a separatist, or you were once registered as a Bloc member 15 years ago etc. It's not the same as the Kenyan thing because French Canadians aren't foreigners.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:47 AM
 
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I think a more important question would be how are french-canadian prime ministers viewed in Quebec? Are they ever viewed as traitors for not being separatists?
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:10 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyo View Post
I think a more important question would be how are french-canadian prime ministers viewed in Quebec? Are they ever viewed as traitors for not being separatists?
It's not like everyone in Quebec is a separatist, but yeah, to hardcore separatists they do view guys like Trudeau as traitors. That's hardly a majority of people though, I'd say 20% of people are comitted separatists who think that way, 20% are committed federalists, and 60% are somewhere in the middle, basically seeing where both sides are coming from. So 80% of people aren't seeing Chretien or Trudeau as traitors and appreciate seeing one of their own in positions of power and strengthening their voice and point of view in the federation in which we all live. Trudeau is more reviled by that lot for stuff like the war measures act, but in general separatists aren't so unreasonable as to not be able to at least respect French Canadian federalist politicians, especially if they in some way are seen as helping to forward French Canadian interests in the here and now as a part of Canada, which is exactly what folks like the Bloc do practically despite being nominally separatist, since there's not alot they can do to forward that agenda policy wise in Ottawa.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:59 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Well the Liberal party voting Justin Trudeau to be their party leader would be the final nail in the coffin of the liberal party heck interim leader Bob Rae as it stands has a better shot plus he and John Baird get into some pretty good back and forth shouting matches on the Hill and it is Good TV for CBC's Power and Politics with Evan Soloman
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,876 posts, read 38,019,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
It's not like everyone in Quebec is a separatist, but yeah, to hardcore separatists they do view guys like Trudeau as traitors. That's hardly a majority of people though, I'd say 20% of people are comitted separatists who think that way, 20% are committed federalists, and 60% are somewhere in the middle, basically seeing where both sides are coming from. So 80% of people aren't seeing Chretien or Trudeau as traitors and appreciate seeing one of their own in positions of power and strengthening their voice and point of view in the federation in which we all live. Trudeau is more reviled by that lot for stuff like the war measures act, but in general separatists aren't so unreasonable as to not be able to at least respect French Canadian federalist politicians, especially if they in some way are seen as helping to forward French Canadian interests in the here and now as a part of Canada, which is exactly what folks like the Bloc do practically despite being nominally separatist, since there's not alot they can do to forward that agenda policy wise in Ottawa.
Good analysis as usual.

It also depends on how federalist Quebecers explain their views.

Some of them have the attitude that Quebec the way it is really sucks and should basically fall into line and be more like the rest of Canada. These people don't make very many friends.

Others have the attitude that Quebec has its unique identity and that this is a good thing, and that being part of Canada provides Quebec with the right conditions in order for its identity to flourish. This is generally well-received.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Others have the attitude that Quebec has its unique identity and that this is a good thing, and that being part of Canada provides Quebec with the right conditions in order for its identity to flourish. This is generally well-received.
That's the kind of federalist I am. Although there's also the justification on the basis of historical relationship. As Justin Trudeau so famously said and was slagged for out of context, Quebecers helped build this country from the ground up, the legacy is left everywhere, so Canada belongs to Quebec in an essential way, and it should continue to play a role in building this greater Canadian project, contributing to something that can have a special and unique place in the world greater than the some of its parts. I know this isn't necessarilly the popular notion, however, as Quebec has become increasingly inward focused and ignorant of what's happening in the country beyond its borders, which I think is a strategic error. I don't want Quebec to change its identity, but I'd prefer if it were more actively engaged in the federation in trying to cooperate with other members for mutual benefit, as I think in the long run this will benefit everyone more than provincialism will. If Quebec's going to be a part of Canada, as I think it will, I don't want it to find that 40 years have past and the rest of the country has forgotten about it and Quebec's voice hasn't appropriately helped shape the national consciousness of the country it ends up having to live within. I want the country's citizens to know and care more about each other without necessarilly becoming the same. Individualism, but with some things to hold us together and make us a strong enough family of provinces that we won't behave dysfunctionally.

Last edited by BIMBAM; 02-15-2013 at 07:37 AM..
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,876 posts, read 38,019,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
That's the kind of federalist I am. Although there's also the justification on the basis of historical relationship. As Justin Trudeau so famously said and was slagged for out of context, Quebecers helped build this country from the ground up, the legacy is left everywhere, so Canada belongs to Quebec in an essential way, and it should continue to play a role in building this greater Canadian project, contributing to something that can have a special and unique place in the world greater than the some of its parts. I know this isn't necessarilly the popular notion, however, as Quebec has become increasingly inward focused and ignorant of what's happening in the country beyond its borders, which I think is a strategic error. I don't want Quebec to change its identity, but I'd prefer if it were more actively engaged in the federation in trying to cooperate with other members for mutual benefit, as I think in the long run this will benefit everyone more than provincialism will. If Quebec's going to be a part of Canada, as I think it will, I don't want it to find that 40 years have past and the rest of the country has forgotten about it and Quebec's voice hasn't appropriately helped shape the national consciousness of the country it ends up having to live within. I want the country's citizens to know and care more about each other without necessarilly becoming the same. Individualism, but with some things to hold us together and make us a strong enough family of provinces that we won't behave dysfunctionally.
You already know this BIMBAM, but this is of course what francophones see as a slippery slope. The overall Canadian identity is not always French-friendly, and tends to be both anglo-focused and steamroller-ish. Plus when you add the American/Hollywood cultural juggernaut that almost always comes part-and-parcel with anything with a (English-)Canadian label, you have a big part of the explanation as to why even federalist Quebecers are leery of totally embracing pan-Canadianism.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,865 posts, read 10,524,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
You already know this BIMBAM, but this is of course what francophones see as a slippery slope. The overall Canadian identity is not always French-friendly, and tends to be both anglo-focused and steamroller-ish. Plus when you add the American/Hollywood cultural juggernaut that almost always comes part-and-parcel with anything with a (English-)Canadian label, you have a big part of the explanation as to why even federalist Quebecers are leery of totally embracing pan-Canadianism.
Of course its anglo focused when Quebec decides to hide inside a cave and stop contributing to the dialogue. I'm realistic enough to know now, especialy having now spent some time in Anglo culture in the ROC which I might not have understood as well as I thought I did, that much of it is just the nature of the hegemonic global anglosphere, but I think there's room in Canada outside of Quebec specifically to focus more on the Francophone culture if its presented as a part of a our collective Canadian culture, and not hostile to them or belonging to some separate other. Canadians no longer have Britain, don't want more USA, and are looking for culture to call their own (look at the universal and enthusiastic adoption of Poutine as local cuisine in recent years, or the extremely widespread use of native motifs in British Columbian public art). A little more on what I think about this topic here, including what I think is the crux of the matter and where I think history is going to go:

https://www.city-data.com/forum/canad...l#post28266200
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,876 posts, read 38,019,680 times
Reputation: 11645
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
Of course its anglo focused when Quebec decides to hide inside a cave and stop contributing to the dialogue. I'm realistic enough to know now, especialy having now spent some time in Anglo culture in the ROC which I might not have understood as well as I thought I did, that much of it is just the nature of the hegemonic global anglosphere, but I think there's room in Canada outside of Quebec specifically to focus more on the Francophone culture if its presented as a part of a our collective Canadian culture, and not hostile to them or belonging to some separate other. Canadians no longer have Britain, don't want more USA, and are looking for culture to call their own (look at the universal and enthusiastic adoption of Poutine as local cuisine in recent years, or the extremely widespread use of native motifs in British Columbian public art). A little more on what I think about this topic here, including what I think is the crux of the matter and where I think history is going to go:

https://www.city-data.com/forum/canad...l#post28266200
We've tried all of that already. The francophone psychological retrenchment onto Quebec territory in the 1960s, which you describe as hiding in a cave, was the direct result of efforts to assimilate francophones across Canada and indifference and even hostility to anything French.

I will agree that there is less hostility to French today in the rest of Canada than before, but I see little sincere interest in embracing French Canadian culture the way, say, African-American culture is embraced across the US. At best there is a willingness on the part of English Canada to let francophones do their own thing unhindered, so this can be said to be an improvement I guess. But don't ask the ROCers to pay any attention to our stuff - that's too much to ask.

Anyway, it's hard to imagine people in English Canada being interested in stuff in French when getting them interested in Canadian stuff produced in their own language is often like pulling teeth. If they don't want watch Canadian Idol and the Juno Awards, why in the hell would they pay attention to Star Académie and le Gala de l'ADISQ?
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