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Old 04-16-2015, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Canada
428 posts, read 446,292 times
Reputation: 661

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Median income is a far better measure of how the common man is doing than per capita.. Obviously very wealthy people are going to skew per capita incomes up.. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that income inequality is less pronounced in Canada than the U.S. Yet the wealthiest Americans are wealthier than the wealthiest Canadians. As for C.O.L - General C.O.L is less in the U.S but it isn't the case across the board.. Both are huge countries so comparing C.O.L across nations or even States is probably not a good idea.. Generally though, I would say C.O.L is less in the U.S but there are so many criteria to compare - especially if one is guaging C.O.L over the course of a person/families lifetime.
Here we go again!
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Old 04-16-2015, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,109 posts, read 15,702,386 times
Reputation: 5191
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernrebel View Post
Here we go again!
Well refute what I said instead of just saying here we go again... You say here we go again about me - I say here we go again about you.. You post Per Capita wealth figures.. The fact is per capita wealth is skewed by the wealthy and isn't a good guage for the common man.. Median incomes are better than that.. You wouldn't even touch Median Family Incomes between the two because it would probably show a different picture than you want to portray - right?

Questioning Income Inequality - well take it up with the UNDP

List of countries by inequality-adjusted HDI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I actually thought my post was pretty balanced actually...

Last edited by fusion2; 04-16-2015 at 05:28 PM..
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Old 04-16-2015, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Canada
170 posts, read 180,748 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Median income is a far better measure of how the common man is doing than per capita.. Obviously very wealthy people are going to skew per capita incomes up.. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that income inequality is less pronounced in Canada than the U.S. Yet the wealthiest Americans are wealthier than the wealthiest Canadians. As for C.O.L - General C.O.L is less in the U.S but it isn't the case across the board.. Both are huge countries so comparing C.O.L across nations or even States is probably not a good idea.. Generally though, I would say C.O.L is less in the U.S but there are so many criteria to compare - especially if one is guaging C.O.L over the course of a person/families lifetime (taking into accout H.C/Educational costs etc) and not just relegating it to how much a Quarter pounder, bottle of rum or pair of Levi's costs in one place vs the other.
I see where you are coming from, but unfortunately this is a myth. If we took every American millionaire out of the survey they would hardly make a dent in GDP (PPP). My first I was at UT I remember a kid challenging the Macroeconomics professor on this fact. But it's all just simple numbers. There is no perfect measurement, but the best we can do is GDP (PPP) keeping in mind it's flaws. Median household income certainly isn't the way to go, and is far more skewed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Well refute what I said instead of just saying here we go again... You say here we go again about me - I say here we go again about you.. You post Per Capita wealth figures.. The fact is per capita wealth is skewed by the wealthy and isn't a good guage for the common man.. Median incomes are better than that.. You wouldn't even touch Median Family Incomes between the two because it would probably show a different picture than you want to portray - right?

Questioning Income Inequality - well take it up with the UNDP

List of countries by inequality-adjusted HDI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Income inequality adjusted HDI" is already a dubious measurement as it stands, and relies on an ideological approach that isn't really relevant to the question of who posses more material wealth. You are willing to overemphasize the impact of the super-rich on GDP (PPP), an impact that is miniscule, but for some reason you disregard the much less reliable measurements of median household income and the least reliable of them all, HDI. I know it sucks to see Ontario do so poorly economically , but the worst part is that we really are doing poorly.
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Old 04-16-2015, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,109 posts, read 15,702,386 times
Reputation: 5191
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCassidy View Post
I see where you are coming from, but unfortunately this is a myth. If we took every American millionaire out of the survey they would hardly make a dent in GDP (PPP). My first I was at UT I remember a kid challenging the Macroeconomics professor on this fact. But it's all just simple numbers. There is no perfect measurement, but the best we can do is GDP (PPP) keeping in mind it's flaws. Median household income certainly isn't the way to go, and is far more skewed.



"Income inequality adjusted HDI" is already a dubious measurement as it stands, and relies on an ideological approach that isn't really relevant to the question of who posses more material wealth. You are willing to overemphasize the impact of the super-rich on GDP (PPP), an impact that is miniscule, but for some reason you disregard the much less reliable measurements of median household income and the least reliable of them all, HDI. I know it sucks to see Ontario do so poorly economically , but the worst part is that we really are doing poorly.
It isn't just a matter of how much wealth as far as i'm concerned its where its concentrated.. The U.S has a higher GDP Per capita because yes there is more wealth - i'm not disputing that i'm talking about where the concentration of that greater wealth is.. Its richest are simply richer than our richest and absolutely the top 10-15 percent make a HUGE difference on GDP in either country.. I'm not sure why you'd dismiss median incomes either.. That is what does the average person make in both countries.. If you take that into account meaning the largest percentage of working class people the incomes aren't that different either Median individual income or median family income.

I agree there is no perfect measure but do a comparison between what the largest percentage of working class individuals in both countries make and tell me that there is a big difference.. Compare the incomes of the top 20 percent in both, the bottom 20 percent and than the rest... The median income of the top 20 percent in the U.S is quite a bit more wealthy than the top 20 percent in Canada - now take the majority that is the 80 percent and than compare median incomes and get back to me..You may even find that the bottom 20 in Canada are doing better than the bottom 20 in the U.S...

I'm more interested in what the average working class individual is making in both Canada and in the U.S than I am comparing total wealth on a per cap basis.. To me the latter is not as useful a measure when comparing how most people are doing. As for how Ontario is doing relative to other places it doesn't make me upset on a personal level - I make more than the Per Capita income of all of the richest places in either Canada or the U.S save for Washington D.C - why should I care on a personal level how Ontario is doing - no sweat off my .....

Who said the argument is about who has the largest material wealth anyway? Why would one dismiss a study done by the UNDP on income inequality either... That to me seems dubious!

Now - do a comparison on how much net worth the average family has in either country and get back to me further... Real Estate has been VERY good to the net worth of many average working class families in Canada..

Last edited by fusion2; 04-16-2015 at 08:04 PM..
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Virginia (From Sweden)
105 posts, read 97,209 times
Reputation: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCassidy View Post
I see where you are coming from, but unfortunately this is a myth. If we took every American millionaire out of the survey they would hardly make a dent in GDP (PPP). My first I was at UT I remember a kid challenging the Macroeconomics professor on this fact. But it's all just simple numbers. There is no perfect measurement, but the best we can do is GDP (PPP) keeping in mind it's flaws. Median household income certainly isn't the way to go, and is far more skewed.
Very good. For all of it's problems GDP-PPP is by far the best measurement there is. Median household income carries far more problems. How many working are in the household? One parent? Two? What about the cost of living? Is it double the area being compared to? Half? Triple the pricing? Median household income can be taken into consideration, but on it's own it is highly unreliable, a whole lot more so than GDP-PPP. Anders Borg talks about this same issue often enough of "wikipediaites" (I know, excuse my translation) who are lulled into false security by unreliable measurements invented by unreliable sources with little to no background in finance. HDI is a good example of this and inequality adjusted HDI is an even better example.

I am surprised at Ontario's bad performance. I had the impression that with Toronto being the main city in the country it would perform better. I thought Ontario would be at the top of Canada, but now it looks like they are supported by the western provinces. You learn something new every day. I assume Alberta is wealthy because of it's abundance of oil but what about Newfoundland? Their region is the poorest in the continent but Newfoundland does much better than the neighboring provinces.
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,109 posts, read 15,702,386 times
Reputation: 5191
Median Household income in USD PPP

Median household income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Virginia (From Sweden)
105 posts, read 97,209 times
Reputation: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
"The figures are before deduction of taxes and social contributions and not adjusted for household size."

"....and are based on responses from at least 2,000 adults in each country, with the data aggregated from 2006 to 2012"

I can tell you that as a Swede living in the US, that the median income is not as high as the US. It's a big difference notably after the government takes more than half of our income in taxes.
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,109 posts, read 15,702,386 times
Reputation: 5191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders Karlsson View Post

I am surprised at Ontario's bad performance. I had the impression that with Toronto being the main city in the country it would perform better. I thought Ontario would be at the top of Canada, but now it looks like they are supported by the western provinces. You learn something new every day. I assume Alberta is wealthy because of it's abundance of oil but what about Newfoundland? Their region is the poorest in the continent but Newfoundland does much better than the neighboring provinces.
The GDP of The Greater Toronto region represents 1/5 the GDP of Canada.. Its GDP is 5 times the size of Calgary for example.. It also is home to almost 40 percent of the nation's immigrants in any given year.. No wonder the GDP on a per cap basis will take a hit.. Make no mistake though, the Greater Toronto region has the majority of the nations millionaires/multimillionaires and is easily the most economically powerful city economy/region in the country. Its not even close for second place but second place rests easily and solidly with Montreal.

Ontario is a huge province by Canadian standards in terms of population but also make no mistake that even the 'has not' provinces of Ontario and Quebec represent more than half of the nations GDP and if Ontario and Quebec were one nation it would be a trillion dollar economy.. The rest of Canada would clock in at about 800 million so probably a good idea not to write off the largest Provinces and economies in the country..

List of Canadian provinces and territories by gross domestic product - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,109 posts, read 15,702,386 times
Reputation: 5191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders Karlsson View Post
"The figures are before deduction of taxes and social contributions and not adjusted for household size."

"....and are based on responses from at least 2,000 adults in each country, with the data aggregated from 2006 to 2012"

I can tell you that as a Swede living in the US, that the median income is not as high as the US. It's a big difference notably after the government takes more than half of our income in taxes.
One way or another - whether you're a Canadian or American you will pay for something called healthcare.. You will pay for things like education.. So yes, Canadians get dinged more on the paycheque from the government but at the end of the day - an American is going to pay for his healthcare and his education every bit as much if not more dollar for dollar than a Canadian.. Its all in the manner that the money leaves the wallet - either the goverment will take it from you or you'll have to dish it out yourself but pay you will...
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:21 PM
 
Location: East Central Pennsylvania/ Chicago for 6yrs.
2,535 posts, read 3,253,358 times
Reputation: 1483
OMG What happened to this thread and topic?
When I first read the FIRST THREE PAGES HER. It was on topic and A VERY CIVIL, INFORMATIVE, HONEST AND BREATH OF FRESH AIR ON C-D. I posted a thanks to the posters for a very enjoyable read. But that Changed drastically after page three. Another
My original post ⤵
Quote:
Originally Posted by steeps View Post
I'm just saying. I enjoyed reading the thread and so many in-depth sincere comments with no arguing, as so many threads on C-D can go too. I am not from the Southern US or Canada. But did enjoy reading through anyway. Great thread so far.
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