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Old 06-06-2013, 09:50 AM
 
103 posts, read 169,888 times
Reputation: 33

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubblejumper View Post
I'm not sure what ulterior motive your alluding to. My concerns are:

a) The use of public, state owned, resources for the promotion of something that ought to be outside their jurisdiction; and,

b) The rights to public use of public space. Building a permanent structure on land that's been reserved for public use deprives others of the use of that land.
I am not saying this about you but there are people that just don't want Christian items even churches yet other religions are fine to do what they want.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:54 AM
pdw
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,687 posts, read 3,105,567 times
Reputation: 1837
If a town wants to set up a memorial remembering WWI and WWII veterans and it happens to have a cross on it in a public park, and you think that's forcing your beliefs on other people, you're clearly militant.
If families in Surrey, BC or Brampton, ON or somewhere with a large Sikh population want to have a Sikh memorial, I have no problem with that either. That's not forcing your beliefs on other people.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,865 posts, read 10,538,683 times
Reputation: 5504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Note to Quebec Catholics - guard your shrines from sledgehammer-wielding atheists!
Ugh, like that's ever even happened outside of the communist context, which was really much more about power . I actually think Quebec is much less in danger of militant Atheism than other societies, counter intuitively. Because of the low level of religiosity, local atheists are very mellow and may even continue to identify on the census as Catholics because they might still attend stuff like baptisms and easter with family at the church, since it doesn't really feel like there's such a need to rebel. On the other hand, in very religious places like the US South, I've noted that Atheists from this area seem to be angry, aggressive, and evangelical about their beliefs, even rejecting Christmas and stuff because it's rooted in religion, which I think is pretty nuts, I never met an Atheist in Quebec who'd think like that. A society with low religiosity isn't the type of society that's going to breed motivated and activist Atheists.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Lethbridge, AB
1,132 posts, read 1,941,237 times
Reputation: 978
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayme2015 View Post
I am not saying this about you but there are people that just don't want Christian items even churches yet other religions are fine to do what they want.
No, my arguments are strictly regarding use of public resources for private organizations. I welcome the display of belief by any religion, Christianity included, using privately owned means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
If a town wants to set up a memorial remembering WWI and WWII veterans and it happens to have a cross on it in a public park, and you think that's forcing your beliefs on other people, you're clearly militant.
If families in Surrey, BC or Brampton, ON or somewhere with a large Sikh population want to have a Sikh memorial, I have no problem with that either. That's not forcing your beliefs on other people.
You're clearly missing my point.

My argument has nothing to do with "forcing belief on people" - I've tried to make that very clear. I will try once more. My argument is solely regarding the use of public resources for the benefit of a private organization.

Understanding that, the issue of war memorials becomes irrelevant to the argument (war being state business, after all).
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,080 posts, read 14,343,045 times
Reputation: 9789
Quote:

Whatever happened to live and let live? I don't engage atheists in arguments
about spirituality, and the vast majority of theists do not openly discuss their
beliefs. The few evangelicals that feel the need to "share the good news" are
harmless. Just ignore them. Why do you feel a need to engage believers in
debates about their "irrational belief" in a higher power. Let them have their
faith, and you can have your faithlessness unperturbed.
Just ignore them? Let them have their faith? I have no problem in letting them have their faith, but when they try to influence law for everyone else it becomes a problem. Trying to ban abortion because it's an affront to God is a problem. Trying to ban same-sex marriage because it's an abomination according to their magic wizard is a problem. Trying to block assisted suicide because "only God has the right to take a life" is a problem. Quebec is mulling over euthanasia and the nuts are coming out of the woodwork. Why should I have to suffer if I have a terminal, painful illness because some folks believe in superstition?
If their God forbids gay marriage, abortion or suicide, then avoid those things and leave the rest of us alone. They have NO RIGHT to expect others to live life according to their beliefs. They want to worship? More power to them. I don't care if they pray until their knees bleed. Just stay out of my life.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:45 AM
 
291 posts, read 476,878 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
Just ignore them? Let them have their faith? I have no problem in letting them have their faith, but when they try to influence law for everyone else it becomes a problem. Trying to ban abortion because it's an affront to God is a problem. Trying to ban same-sex marriage because it's an abomination according to their magic wizard is a problem. Trying to block assisted suicide because "only God has the right to take a life" is a problem. Quebec is mulling over euthanasia and the nuts are coming out of the woodwork. Why should I have to suffer if I have a terminal, painful illness because some folks believe in superstition?
If their God forbids gay marriage, abortion or suicide, then avoid those things and leave the rest of us alone. They have NO RIGHT to expect others to live life according to their beliefs. They want to worship? More power to them. I don't care if they pray until their knees bleed. Just stay out of my life.
Which highlight's one of the problems with the live and let live approach: religious people don't like it. When you believe that certain things will cause people to end up in Hell, and that you're supposed to love everyone, then you'll do what you can to prevent people from doing things that will send them to Hell. Which includes opposing the things you mentioned, plus sex ed, prostitution, gender equality, or even food (some Muslim countries restrict the importation of pork).

Also, TOkidd, I think you underestimate the inherent danger of religion. We are talking about people who are willing to believe extraordinarily ridiculous things just because it is convenient for them. Do you really think that doesn't lead to problems? That perhaps these people are more easy to manipulate than people who at least try to approach things rationally? We've got a sizable number of people who are willing to change their beliefs based on what an old man says.
We've got a sizable number of people who are skeptical of evolution, climate change, and science in general because it goes against their beliefs.
People religious beliefs inevitably shape public policy. And public policy based on the argument "Because the Bible" is generally not good public policy.

I don't know if you've seen the movie "The Mist." It's based on a Stephen King novel. If you haven't, you should watch it, as it gives an accurate portrayal of how religious people might behave when ***** hits the fan. Because when things are calm and peaceful, it might not matter what you believe in. But when new, perhaps scary concepts appear, that's when it makes a big difference.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,590,252 times
Reputation: 11937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Note to Quebec Catholics - guard your shrines from sledgehammer-wielding atheists!
Wow. You really don't seem to know Quebeckers or Canadians, let alone atheists. It reminds me of a question that many from the U.S. have asked me. " Will Quebec and the rest of Canada go to war?"
Never say never of course, but to the vast, vast majority of Quebeckers and the ROC it's seems absurd.
It's not really our way.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,590,252 times
Reputation: 11937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubblejumper View Post
No, my arguments are strictly regarding use of public resources for private organizations. I welcome the display of belief by any religion, Christianity included, using privately owned means.



You're clearly missing my point.

My argument has nothing to do with "forcing belief on people" - I've tried to make that very clear. I will try once more. My argument is solely regarding the use of public resources for the benefit of a private organization.

Understanding that, the issue of war memorials becomes irrelevant to the argument (war being state business, after all).
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,080 posts, read 14,343,045 times
Reputation: 9789
Quote:

I don't know if you've seen the movie "The Mist." It's based on a Stephen
King novel. If you haven't, you should watch it, as it gives an accurate
portrayal of how religious people might behave when ***** hits the fan. Because
when things are calm and peaceful, it might not matter what you believe in. But
when new, perhaps scary concepts appear, that's when it makes a big
difference.
I LOVE that movie! Evidently, it doesn't take much to go from harmless to calling for human sacrifices.

You touched on another good point. Climate change. I've seen bible bangers say that we shouldn't concern ourselves with global warming, pollution or the environment, because "God won't let anything happen to the earth, and besides, Jesus is coming." How phenomenally short-sighted is that? Many of these people are the ones who implement laws.
Not so harmless after all, it seems.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,080 posts, read 14,343,045 times
Reputation: 9789
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo


Note to Quebec Catholics - guard your shrines
from sledgehammer-wielding atheists!
Don't be absurd. Why would we tear down beautiful, 200 yr old buildings? They make lovely condos.
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