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For clarity in this thread I would like to separate facts from fictions or personal preferences on the Seattle-Vancouver debate
1) Van has better public transportation.
Partially true, Seattle is catching up, nowadays even if you live far from downtown in many areas you have excellent bus service + train service (especially in the North-South corridor).
In practice, if you live in North-South corridor + West Seattle, Bellevue, Kirkland, Issaquah, you can as easily use public transport as in Vancouver (me and my wife use public transportation to go to work and we live in West Seattle)
Yes if you live more in the outskirts you are better off in Vancouver...if you are relatively close to the Skytrain.
2) I can live and work without a car in Vancouver, in Seattle is not possible.
False, and this point is in part a corollary of point 1.
You can as easily not owning a car in Seattle as in Vancouver if you live and work in the right place (same as Van).
In Downtown Seattle you have grocery stores, hardware stores, etc...You can live in Bellevue, West Seattle or any other places mentioned and served by Sound Transit and commute to Seattle without owning a car.
The Puget Sound is as bike friendly as the Greater Vancouver area.
3) Vancouver downtown is prettier and it has a nicer waterfront and the closeness to Stanley Park.
Unequivocably true, we are dismantling the Alaskan Viaduct in our waterfront and it will replaced with a surface park so we should get better.
We have as many parks and green areas (Arboretum is beautiful) but we do not have one as close to downtown as Stanley Park.
However in terms of nice little coves (a la Deep Cove to give you an idea) where to take nice walks in the Puget Sound we have probably even more spots like that.
Vancouver downtown is newer.
4) Vancouver (in general) is prettier
False (for many is the "logical" conclusion from the above point which is true)
Vancouver downtown is prettier than downtown Seattle.....Greater Vancouver is not prettier than the Puget Sound. The Puget Sound is as clean and green as GV.
In Vancouver mountains are closer, in Seattle they are a bith farther but still very visible and of scenic significance (The Cascades, the Olympic mountains, Mount Rainier)
5) I can go ski one day after work, sailboating the next day and kayaking the next after that in Vancouver...not so in Seattle
False...Vancouver has no advantages in terms of access to recreation activities or more different activities than Seattle.
When it comes to skiing, Yes in no traffic, if you can afford to live Downtown/Kits/North Van/West Van, you are about 15 minutes away from Grouse mountain where in Seattle you need 45 minutes of easy freeway driving to Snoqualmie Pass. Snoqualmie during week days is full of "afterworkers"....
6) Vancouver has less crime
False, especially burglaries and grand theft auto.
7) Vancouver has better schools for the kids, more uniform standards
Only partially true (on the more uniform standards issue). Yes the Puget Sound has few school districts not really good (White Center for example) but they are few and usually located in places where a professional Canadian expatriate would not live anyway.
8) Vancouver road system sucks compared to Seattle
True
9) Cost of living is higher in Vancouver, especially when you include insane housing
True
10) Professional salaries are lower and, especially, career opportunities are scarcer in Vancouver compared to Seattle
True
11) Seattle has a more active arts scene, it spends much more for the arts
True
12) Vancouver has better Asian food, especially Chinese.
True
13) Vancouver has in general better ethnic food, superior dining experience across the board
False
14) In Seattle ethnic minorities are better integrated with the mainstream culture, in Vancouver they tend to keep more among themselves
True
Please feel free to add other points if I forgot something......
Last edited by saturno_v; 05-16-2013 at 03:30 PM..
"That is funny because where I live I have a playground just 3 blocks down the road...Ercolini park...check it out....maybe you need to take a walk with me to find playground for kids...dime a dozen."
I know, let's play a game. I'll count how many playgrounds in Vancouver and you Seattle. I have no idea of the outcome.
Only two rules. It must be within city limits. For example I can't use North Van and it can't just be a park, it must have playground equipment.
Game?
Seattle may have the advantage since it's 217.2 km2 and Vancouver is 114 sq km2. Vancouver would have the advantage IF the question was playgrounds within the downtown..
Natnasci
We can go back and forth all day but the real issue here is another....we can argue about who has the closer mountain or who has more playground or better Chiense food.
The 800 pounds gorilla in the room is that Vancouver is failing its younger generations in giving them a real career and future perspective because of the insane cost of living and dismal business climate...Natnasci is not something I pulled out of my behind, it is front page material in Vancouver newspapers
Young families and even professionals are leaving Van in droves because of this.
That beautiful city has been reduced to a rich expatriate playground and real estate speculator heaven.
Policy makers have failed the city.
If you lose the people that really make the city run, it is a serious problem.
In my view the perceived advantages of living in Van (again, how close is a park, how good are Chinese food) is nothing compared to the disadvantages.
The sooner policy makers and city planners recognize they have a problem the better, rather than keep repeating each other the usual propaganda line "The best city where to live"....
We can go back and forth all day but the real issue here is another....we can argue about who has the closer mountain or who has more playground or better Chiense food.
The 800 pounds gorilla in the room is that Vancouver is failing its younger generations in giving them a real career and future perspective because of the insane cost of living and dismal business climate...Natnasci is not something I pulled out of my behind, it is front page material in Vancouver newspapers
Young families and even professionals are leaving Van in droves because of this.
That beautiful city has been reduced to a rich expatriate playground and real estate speculator heaven.
Policy makers have failed the city.
If you lose the people that really make the city run, it is a serious problem.
In my view the perceived advantages of living in Van (again, how close is a park, how good are Chinese food) is nothing compared to the disadvantages.
The sooner policy makers and city planners recognize they have a problem the better, rather than keep repeating each other the usual propaganda line "The best city where to live"....
I agree with all of this. Vancouverites live in a strange little bubble that completely dismisses the benefits to having an actual career. Most who I personally know are dead broke, or even the higher income professionals I know are living paycheque to paycheque or making significant sacrifices in their lifestyle or living accommodations.
I think there is a huge correlation between ones quality life and ones income level that cannot be replaced by mountains, sushi restaurants, and seawalls - but that's just me. If your finances are in line you have greater flexibility to travel, or to live at any place of your choosing later in life.
Finances being equal, I still prefer Vancouver as a city. But if you're talking about a salary increase worth tens of thousands, homes that are hundredsof thousands cheaper, and a 0% state income tax - all things that are achievable in Seattle, I would make the move no question.
I think this thread has gone sideways. The original question was what directed to you, what you would prefer. Not what is best for young people looking for a career or a cheaper cost of living. It's a fantasy question. Perhaps it should of been worded slightly differently to include that in the move you would have the same buying power, job etc. If that wasn't the intention of the OP's question, then sure include cost of living, as I did by mentioning healthcare, but don't dismiss other's reasons for living in Vancouver as somehow less worthy. My original answer stands.
All the thing listed about the so called good things in Seattle do NOT apply to me. I am not looking for work, I have paid off my mortgage, I am retired, I don't need a freeway to get from A to B, etc.
My choice if I were given one, is to live in Vancouver over Seattle. I live downtown and I love it for reasons that simply don't exist in downtown Seattle.
There is a strange reaction with some when it comes to defending Vancouver. To say we live in a bubble is simply not true. People who live here come from all over the world and a lot of us travel. I know what Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto and area, Montreal, NYC, Phoenix, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland Ore, Seattle, London U.K. Paris, Milan, Amsterdam, Venice, Athens...on and on...are like. I've been travelling to these cities for 30 years. I know what is good about a city and what I like about a city and what I don't like. So again for ME Vancouver wins over Seattle...does it win over other cities I've been to...well that another question for another day.
We can go back and forth all day but the real issue here is another....we can argue about who has the closer mountain or who has more playground or better Chiense food.
The 800 pounds gorilla in the room is that Vancouver is failing its younger generations in giving them a real career and future perspective because of the insane cost of living and dismal business climate...Natnasci is not something I pulled out of my behind, it is front page material in Vancouver newspapers
Young families and even professionals are leaving Van in droves because of this.
That beautiful city has been reduced to a rich expatriate playground and real estate speculator heaven.
Policy makers have failed the city.
If you lose the people that really make the city run, it is a serious problem.
In my view the perceived advantages of living in Van (again, how close is a park, how good are Chinese food) is nothing compared to the disadvantages.
The sooner policy makers and city planners recognize they have a problem the better, rather than keep repeating each other the usual propaganda line "The best city where to live"....
I agree. Who cares about parks, restaurants, and scenery if you can't find a job and afford a decent place to live?
And so my answer to the OP's question is that I would prefer Seattle because it is cheaper and has better job opportunities.
In Vancouver, first of all there are hardly ANY listings at that price, but for $168,000 you can get a 226 square foot apartment. Yes, 226 sq feet---basically it IS a hotel room. And not a very big one at that.
In Vancouver, first of all there are hardly ANY listings at that price, but for $168,000 you can get a 226 square foot apartment. Yes, 226 sq feet---basically it IS a hotel room. And not a very big one at that.
I agree that Vancouver real estate is very pricey these days--especially in the central core. But that's sort of a poor comparison, because you're taking a condo in Seattle in a fairly suburban area of North Seattle right next to I-5 and comparing it to a place in Vancouver that's right downtown on the waterfront(albeit basically a hotel). But while downtown Vancouver and the West End isn't cheap, neither is living somewhere like Belltown these days. Though you'll still probably get a much better deal in Seattle.
But while downtown Vancouver and the West End isn't cheap, neither is living somewhere like Belltown these days. Though you'll still probably get a much better deal in Seattle.
With my wife we got a 2700 sq/ft house in West Seattle with a stunning sunset ocean view, high end all around woodwork inside, private car parking in the back, shed and nice big yard for $575.000
I'm literally 5 minutes walking from a nice beach walk, delicious French bakery, ton of restaurants, grocery stores, bus stops (you can easily commute to Seattle or Bellevue by pubblic transportation, my wife does it every working day)
Even in the current Vancouver RE slump I saw ads for dumps in Burnaby for almost a million.
My Vancouver friends told me that my house could easily fetch close to 2 big ones in Van.....every time they come for a visit (they may drive down this week end) they want to pull their hair out about the bizarro Vancouver RE market...
We can go back and forth all day but the real issue here is another....we can argue about who has the closer mountain or who has more playground or better Chiense food.
The 800 pounds gorilla in the room is that Vancouver is failing its younger generations in giving them a real career and future perspective because of the insane cost of living and dismal business climate...Natnasci is not something I pulled out of my behind, it is front page material in Vancouver newspapers
Young families and even professionals are leaving Van in droves because of this.
That beautiful city has been reduced to a rich expatriate playground and real estate speculator heaven.
Policy makers have failed the city.
If you lose the people that really make the city run, it is a serious problem.
In my view the perceived advantages of living in Van (again, how close is a park, how good are Chinese food) is nothing compared to the disadvantages.
The sooner policy makers and city planners recognize they have a problem the better, rather than keep repeating each other the usual propaganda line "The best city where to live"....
It's interesting that the exact same thing is happening in Toronto and has been for a little over ten years. When I moved there in '99, the following few years were some of the last ones where any real middle class neighbourhoods still existed in Old Toronto. Now there are really none left, unless you include some less desirable hoods that are far from decent transit options, and even then you're looking at $500,000+ for a bungalow, completely unrenovated, stuck in the middle of no where. It's a goddam shame and a failure to Canada's people that middle class and middle income people cannot afford to live in two of our three biggest and best cities. And instead of building affordable rental buildings, which most cities have in spades, they build condos by the thousands, which are promptly bought up by speculators, who rent them out at sky-high prices.
Our politicians are totally asleep at the switch and this issue isn't even on their radar because - guess what? - all our politicians have the money to live decent lives in these pricey metropolises. But for those who don't, they are forced to live miles away from their job, out in some far-flung burb where the lots are big and the roads bigger, where you have to get in your car and drive to get a carton of milk, and spend up to three hours in traffic each day. Then they say people can't afford taxes and fees to build better transit to ease the gridlock and make the commute from the suburbs less hectic - but how can they afford not to? At least Vancouver doesn't have a mayor with a probable serious substance abuse issue and a minority government whose hands are completely tied by left and right-wing nut jobs in the other parties. Nonetheless, I understand this issue well because I'm looking to buy in my city right now and it's a friggin' crime what little pieces of junk in the city are being sold (and bought) for.
It's interesting that the exact same thing is happening in Toronto and has been for a little over ten years. When I moved there in '99, the following few years were some of the last ones where any real middle class neighbourhoods still existed in Old Toronto. Now there are really none left, unless you include some less desirable hoods that are far from decent transit options, and even then you're looking at $500,000+ for a bungalow, completely unrenovated, stuck in the middle of no where. It's a goddam shame and a failure to Canada's people that middle class and middle income people cannot afford to live in two of our three biggest and best cities. And instead of building affordable rental buildings, which most cities have in spades, they build condos by the thousands, which are promptly bought up by speculators, who rent them out at sky-high prices.
Our politicians are totally asleep at the switch and this issue isn't even on their radar because - guess what? - all our politicians have the money to live decent lives in these pricey metropolises. But for those who don't, they are forced to live miles away from their job, out in some far-flung burb where the lots are big and the roads bigger, where you have to get in your car and drive to get a carton of milk, and spend up to three hours in traffic each day. Then they say people can't afford taxes and fees to build better transit to ease the gridlock and make the commute from the suburbs less hectic - but how can they afford not to? At least Vancouver doesn't have a mayor with a probable serious substance abuse issue and a minority government whose hands are completely tied by left and right-wing nut jobs in the other parties. Nonetheless, I understand this issue well because I'm looking to buy in my city right now and it's a friggin' crime what little pieces of junk in the city are being sold (and bought) for.
For Vancouver an asinine immigration policy, handing out "business" visas like candies created these abominations...compounded by years of knee-jerk pandering to the greenie radical chic....now you have a nice Potemkin village....
I agree that Vancouver real estate is very pricey these days--especially in the central core. But that's sort of a poor comparison, because you're taking a condo in Seattle in a fairly suburban area of North Seattle right next to I-5 and comparing it to a place in Vancouver that's right downtown on the waterfront(albeit basically a hotel). But while downtown Vancouver and the West End isn't cheap, neither is living somewhere like Belltown these days. Though you'll still probably get a much better deal in Seattle.
I did a search for Vancouver on realtor.ca, and only about 5 listings came up for listings up to $175,000. I believe that included suburban areas.
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