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Old 11-13-2013, 05:29 PM
 
2,420 posts, read 4,080,474 times
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The same USA Healthcare debates are actively raging again now in the US due to the start of Obama's new ACA Health plan due to go into effect (for purchasing policies) Jan 2014.

The people who continue to fight either the ACA Plan, or any discussion of adapting a universal health care plan, always bring up Canada (as well as the UK) as having these horrific wait times. A couple of people who have lived in Canada and the UK have come on and told them the longer waits are primarily for elective surgery. However, Americans nay sayers always pro-port to know otherwise.

One such individual a bit ago, reported in his post that he lives in Maine, and his small town is filled with Canadians seeking out US care. He claims he has met several individuals who claim to have life threatening conditions that state they would die if they waited to be treated in Canada. I find that hard to believe, so decided to take a stroll over here to ask the people who actually live there.

I can understand some wealthy individuals with money to burn coming to the US to have procedures done on their schedule and not someone else's. But I wouldn't think there would be a lot of it.

My own feeling are that we have an awful lot of citizens who buy all the political propaganda being spewed by politicians and media non stop, and some people have a totally closed mind into looking beyond it's borders for answers. I shake my head in disbelief with it all. Luckily not everyone feels this way. We do at least have the other half of the population that seems to know better.

Anyone want to comment on the subject?

Last edited by modhatter; 11-13-2013 at 05:42 PM..
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
164 posts, read 341,240 times
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Default Canada is not really a panacea either

Canada is not a perfect system either. Somethings such as dental and eye care are not covered.

It is hard finding a family doctor.

Most of the doctors in Canada are foreign born and trained. There is little information about them to make sure you are choosing a competent doctor.

The facilities are usually run-down and medical professionals keep asking for and getting more money.

Some of the hospitals are nice looking but I have never had to use one yet, knock on wood.

Transparency is the key to success for both systems.
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
11,261 posts, read 14,816,794 times
Reputation: 13506
I've yet to be in a run down hospital.

Strange.
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:54 PM
 
25,058 posts, read 25,684,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pignchick View Post
Canada is not a perfect system either. Somethings such as dental and eye care are not covered.

It is hard finding a family doctor.

Most of the doctors in Canada are foreign born and trained. There is little information about them to make sure you are choosing a competent doctor.

The facilities are usually run-down and medical professionals keep asking for and getting more money.

Some of the hospitals are nice looking but I have never had to use one yet, knock on wood.

Transparency is the key to success for both systems.
Have you lived in Canada or have a Canadian family member?
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:56 PM
 
25,058 posts, read 25,684,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnatomicflux View Post
I've yet to be in a run down hospital.

Strange.
Since the OP brought up the UK in his OP, I have my two cents to throw in since my soon to be wife is British.

Her local A&E is a bit run down and the doctors are foreign and lower quality than British doctors, but at the same time the UK has some of the best hospitals in the world that are part of the NHS system, just like the US system. Americans need to stop pretending that we only have the best hospitals in the world and that only private hospitals are capable of providing the best care and are the most innovative. One huge innovation in US hospitals has been a standardized system of patient handoff to different shifts that originated in the Veterans' Administration hospital system. That is the American NHS right there. To date, most private hospitals in the US copy this concept as it is now known as SBAR

By the way, why is this in the Toronto forum? Makes more sense to put it in the Canada parent forum
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:37 PM
 
2,420 posts, read 4,080,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Since the OP brought up the UK in his OP, I have my two cents to throw in since my soon to be wife is British.

Her local A&E is a bit run down and the doctors are foreign and lower quality than British doctors, but at the same time the UK has some of the best hospitals in the world that are part of the NHS system, just like the US system. Americans need to stop pretending that we only have the best hospitals in the world and that only private hospitals are capable of providing the best care and are the most innovative. One huge innovation in US hospitals has been a standardized system of patient handoff to different shifts that originated in the Veterans' Administration hospital system. That is the American NHS right there. To date, most private hospitals in the US copy this concept as it is now known as SBAR

By the way, why is this in the Toronto forum? Makes more sense to put it in the Canada parent forum
Just because someone mentioned Toronto on the other forum.
Only some Americans say we have the BEST HOSPITALS IN THE WORLD, THE BEST DOCTORS IN THE WORLD, THE BEST EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD. It is a condition that afflicts a certain portion of the population. It may be something in the water. I don't drink that water. That's why I like to ask questions and find out things for myself. But we do have some well decorated doctor's offices.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:06 PM
 
4,795 posts, read 11,518,261 times
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But Obamacare( I refuse to call it the misnamed Affordable Care Act) is the worst of both worlds. It does not give a Canadian style universal coverage. After it is fully implemented, 30 million Americans will still be uninsured. This is nothing close to universal coverage.
In the private insurance market, which many people are satisfied with, it increases their rates by forcing people to get coverage for things many of them don't want, while at the same time decreasing the PPO network meaning many people will have a smaller choice of doctors and hospitals.
This thing is a huge boondoggle down here.
So, it doesn't do what the left claims to want, universal coverage, and it screws up the private market too.
I don't know how accurate your news coverage in Canada is of all this, but this is turning into one of the worst political catastrophes since the 2008 financial meltdown. Obama's poll numbers are sinking lower everyday due to this and it isn't going to get better because this is just the first wave of all this. Next year it gets worse, not better.
A Canadian universal plan would be hard to implement here for various reasons but it would be better than this mess.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Poshawa, Ontario
2,983 posts, read 3,717,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnatomicflux View Post
I've yet to be in a run down hospital.

Strange.
Oshawa General is pretty ghetto.
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:53 AM
 
Location: Glasgow, uk
2,387 posts, read 3,050,497 times
Reputation: 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Since the OP brought up the UK in his OP, I have my two cents to throw in since my soon to be wife is British.

Her local A&E is a bit run down and the doctors are foreign and lower quality than British doctors, but at the same time the UK has some of the best hospitals in the world that are part of the NHS system, just like the US system. Americans need to stop pretending that we only have the best hospitals in the world and that only private hospitals are capable of providing the best care and are the most innovative. One huge innovation in US hospitals has been a standardized system of patient handoff to different shifts that originated in the Veterans' Administration hospital system. That is the American NHS right there. To date, most private hospitals in the US copy this concept as it is now known as SBAR

By the way, why is this in the Toronto forum? Makes more sense to put it in the Canada parent forum
Since I'm from the UK and a student nurse I thought I'd comment........the reason the hospitals are run down is purely the lack of staff. The staff are overworked and underpaid. Most accidents occur from the medical team due to the staff being overworked. Apparently we are educated to a higher standard over here which Im not sure of however I know that in my class a girl had started her training in OZ however it was disregarded here and she had to start again. We are very pernickety with what qualification we accept and where they are from.


NHS here has a bad rep however there was talk about making travelers/holiday makers pay for treatment that way the NHS would be able to employ thousands more medical staff, therefore raising the standard of care.


Americans do tend to think they have the best of everything which I disagree with however everyone has their own personal opinion about their country and are clearly bias.
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:55 AM
 
320 posts, read 438,255 times
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I am one of few Americans who has first-hand experience with both systems. Moreover, I've personally had both employer-subsidized and private insurance in the states.

Without a doubt, the Canadian single-payer system is vastly superior to American private insurance plans. For years prior to the ACA, employers increasingly had dropped healthcare coverage for employees. For those who didn't qualify for Medicaid, private health plans were the only option. Yet, prior to Obama's healthcare reforms, people with "pre-existing conditions" simply couldn't get any insurance at all. Insurance companies worked overtime to deny coverage, or to drag reimbursement over months. Worst of all, many plans capped out at $1 million, meaning that people with, say, very premature babies or serious injuries/illness lost their health care. (These reforms were introduced before the ACA rollout, but aren't completely separate.) Countless people had to file for bankruptcy for lack of health insurance--in fact, medical bills continue to be the number one reason for filing for personal bankruptcy.

Canada's universal coverage means people don't die for lack of insurance. There is virtually no bureaucracy--no endless forms, no co-pays; treatments are covered at 100%, not the varying 50% and 90% you see in the states. You get sick, you see the doctor (it's easier in an urban area, where there are clinics set up in every neighborhood). Doctors and hospitals are 100% guaranteed payment (like Medicare in the states.) I don't recall any poor condition hospitals in Canada though I've seen plenty in the U.S. I agree that the system is far better for emergency and serious medical conditions, but it's hardly the "rationing system" that American conservatives lie about. It isn't a socialist system, either. In fact, Canadians have chosen to prioritize healthcare over other forms of a social safety net.

A number of Americans also don't realize that the Canadian system contains a number of provisions that, quite frankly, conservatives would love. In Canada, cases of medical malpractice, even those that result in death and injury, have capped damages. Non-citizens can get treatment, but they have to pay for it out of pocket. Finally, the system has never covered everything: employers have traditionally offered benefits like dental and eye care.

As for the new ACA: It took Canada over 20 years (1950s-1970) to adapt to universal healthcare. I wonder how many Canadians remember the doctors' strikes of the 1960s? Or the 50/50 system in place before Trudeau? Furthermore, a number of problems with Canada's system have only recently emerged. For instance, in 2005 the Supreme Court ruled that people could buy supplemental, private insurance, effectively creating a two-tiered system (something the U.S. has always had).

On the other hand, employer-subsidized insurance in the states varies considerably, since coverage depends on the number of people who participate in the pool. If there are lots of employees, the coverage is likely to be more effective, with lower deductibles and fewer co-pays. If your pool is small, the coverage is often little better than a bare-bones private plan.

Probably one thing Americans and Canadians have in common is that both are under-insured.

There are lots of genuine problems with Obamacare and lots of myths and deliberate misinformation too. (So much depends on qualifying for subsidies; blue states accepted medicaid expansion, red states didn't, though many are changing their minds; blue states negotiated health exchanges, red states...well, you get the picture). Frankly, those who seem to be complaining the loudest are non-insured people who seem to think that a way of saving money is to deliberately go without health insurance. For some reason, these people would rather pay tens of thousands out of pocket for medical care than few hundred a month for health insurance. Perhaps they think they're immortal? Frankly, I wish the ACA would've created an opt-out specifically for them, on the strict condition that they never be allowed to file for bankrupcy protection for their medical bills. Personal responsibility means having health insurance; if you choose to live dangerously, why should you get to escape your debts?!
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