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There are ways to get around that such as not allowing people to collect any kind of government benefits until they've lived in the respective country for at least a year.
In response to pretty blatant and widespread abuse of the Australian welfare system, over a decade ago the government here introduced what's known as a Special Category Visa (SCV) for Kiwis who come here by virtue of the open border agreement and who don't meet the criteria for other programs. If they are here on an SCV they are ineligible for government welfare, taxpayer funded education and similar benefits. The key message: if Kiwis want to stay in Australia long term, then they should become a permanent resident if not a citizen, and if they don't meet the criteria for that (e.g. fail the good character test) then they should think long and hard before setting up life here on a long term basis. That's all very clearly explained at every step of the process.
You'd think that would have solved the problem. We'll not really, it just changed the dynamics of it, and turned it into an ongoing point of friction between the Aus and NZ governments because of the expectations some hold built apon notions of "free access" and "open borders".
By contract Canadians, Americans, Europeans and others simply apply for a visa, come here, are welcomed as part of the community, (hopefully) enjoy their time here, and often stay on as permanent residents or citizens. It all goes pretty smoothly because there are no unrealistic expectations or an elevated sense of entitlement.
Most countries, Canada and Australia particularly, are pretty open already with numerous migration, family reunion, working holiday and refugee programs. So an open border policy will only facilitate entry by those who don't meet the criteria for those arrangements. And while "most" people are hardworking, respectful of the culture and sensitivities of the country they live in, and have reasonable expectations of their adoptive home, there are those who aren't so inclined. Most countries have their own fair share of no-hopers, dead beats and those with an elevated sense of entitlement; do you want to risk becoming the destination of choice for those from another country?
Richard and I have disagreed in the past, but I am with him here.
Our two countries' policies towards foreigners are roughly the same. Somebody who meets the criteria set by the host country (student visas, employment visas under 30, whatever) ought to be able to immigrate. Those who don't, won't. Simple as that.
An open border between Australia/New Zealand and Canada doesn't stop Canadians from visiting Australia or NZ as a tourist for up to three months. The "under 30" (or whatever) working visa doesn't stop Canadians from working in Aus if they fit the requirements; just as Canada offers a similar visa to Australians and New Zealanders. (I well remember being taken aback when our waitress in Banff, Alberta sounded like she was straight out of "Skippy the Bush Kangaroo.")
Australia is an independent country. Canada is an independent country. As such, they set their own entry and residence requirements. If they choose to align those interests, great. If they don't; well, too bad. Tourism, and work visas, are still possible between the two, on very liberal terms. Do the paperwork and attend the interviews and you're good to go.
Note to Americans: Though both Australia and Canada are members of the Commonwealth of Nations under QEII, this carries no weight at the international level. Australia makes its laws and Canada makes its laws, and neither can be overruled by the Queen. In other words, a British heritage means nothing (in this context) for Australia or Canada. Each of Australia and Canada are independent members of the community of nations, just like the USA; and as such, makes its own laws regarding imigration.
In response to pretty blatant and widespread abuse of the Australian welfare system, over a decade ago the government here introduced what's known as a Special Category Visa (SCV) for Kiwis who come here by virtue of the open border agreement and who don't meet the criteria for other programs. If they are here on an SCV they are ineligible for government welfare, taxpayer funded education and similar benefits. The key message: if Kiwis want to stay in Australia long term, then they should become a permanent resident if not a citizen, and if they don't meet the criteria for that (e.g. fail the good character test) then they should think long and hard before setting up life here on a long term basis. That's all very clearly explained at every step of the process.
You'd think that would have solved the problem. We'll not really, it just changed the dynamics of it, and turned it into an ongoing point of friction between the Aus and NZ governments because of the expectations some hold built apon notions of "free access" and "open borders".
By contract Canadians, Americans, Europeans and others simply apply for a visa, come here, are welcomed as part of the community, (hopefully) enjoy their time here, and often stay on as permanent residents or citizens. It all goes pretty smoothly because there are no unrealistic expectations or an elevated sense of entitlement.
There was some abuse by the lazy and unskilled kiwis new to Australia which has stopped now I have kiwi friends who pay a lot of tax but their children who have been here less than ten years do not get what Australian children get when it comes to help with further education. Is it time that NZ dumped the free trade agreement? after all Australia makes, grows nothing that NZ cannot get else where.
There was some abuse by the lazy and unskilled kiwis new to Australia which has stopped now I have kiwi friends who pay a lot of tax but their children who have been here less than ten years do not get what Australian children get when it comes to help with further education. Is it time that NZ dumped the free trade agreement? after all Australia makes, grows nothing that NZ cannot get else where.
Why don't they just apply for permanent residence status? Seriously, it's not that hard and people from all over the world do it every day of the week.
Last edited by Richard1098; 02-20-2014 at 02:05 AM..
Why don't they just apply for permanent residence status? Seriously, it's not that hard and people from all over the world do it every day of the week.
Richard, I cannot even make out what makaraka66 is getting at. Can you clarify?
There was some abuse by the lazy and unskilled kiwis new to Australia which has stopped now. I have kiwi friends who pay a lot of tax, but their children who have been here less than ten years do not get what Australian children get when it comes to help with further education. Is it time that NZ dumped the free trade agreement? After all Australia makes, and grows nothing that NZ cannot get else where.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons
Richard, I cannot even make out what makaraka66 is getting at. Can you clarify?
I put a comma, a period, and an extra word in there. Does that help?
There was talk about something like this 100 years ago, forming some type of confederation between Anglo-Saxon countries. If it didn't happen then I don't know how it can be possible in todays political climate. The whole Anglosphere is run by treasonous sell-out cowards who have bankrupted us and flooded us with millions of foreigners from the third world. Until people wake up and confront that problem I don't see anything happening any time soon.
Lets just say that a lot of Aussies would have strong views on the pitfalls of a poorly thought out and implemented open border agreement that lacks the flexibility to deal with changing trends and social issues.
Most countries, Canada and Australia particularly, are pretty open already with numerous migration, family reunion, working holiday and refugee programs. So an open border policy will only facilitate entry by those who don't meet the criteria for those arrangements. And while "most" people are hardworking, respectful of the culture and sensitivities of the country they live in, and have reasonable expectations of their adoptive home, there are those who aren't so inclined. Most countries have their own fair share of no-hopers, dead beats and those with an elevated sense of entitlement; do you want to risk becoming the destination of choice for those from another country?
AND one must never forget growing religious zealotry. Dealing with those types of religions that may have as a cornerstone "go ye forth and multiply" for the sole purpose of gaining dominance and control.
One country's unfettered access by those citizens of convenience may not be to the betterment of another's, therefore an open border may be a definite drawback for them.
-Gives individuals the "experience" of living in another country if they desire thus creating a more wordly society
-We are similar so why not
Potential costs:
-Administrative issues of determining citizenship requirements, ability to collect social benefits, ability to utilize education/healthcare systems, tracking people for border security, aligning education and work experience, where do people pay taxes etc. will be cumbersome and could create animosity.
-Potentially dealing with an influx of "less than desirable" immigrants who move to draw benefits from the state, escape the law, those with political/harmful motives, or use the countries as a jumping point to leave. Well off educated people don't move away permanently, it's usually people in need so there needs to be a filter to ensure we get people that contribute to our nation
-Losing more talented citizens on a net basis who came up through the Canadian system to another country
-Compromising our sovereignty - we are an independent nations with our own laws & borders and protecting/enhancing our country should be our first responsibility. Being a citizen in another foreign country should not confer the same rights as someone who is born & raised and contributed to this country's development. No "2 for 1" deal so to speak. Canada and Australia should have the ability to determine through a"process" who comes into their country to settle. It shouldn't be a free for all.
-It's not like we are integrated economically, socially or politically to drive some mutual benefits on these levels.
-As mentioned byprevious posters, past experience between NZ and Australia at this wasn't smooth and caused some issues with certain groups of people.
-I don't believe that an open border agreement will help our country economically or create more innovation. The wealthiest and more innovative nations do not have open border agreements. They have solid systems of education, business climate, and entrepreneurial flair that results in more start ups with international ambitions. They also have a system (eg Silicon Valley) that attracts the best and the brightest of the world to their hubs. This is what we should be developing if we want to improve our human capital.
The benefits don't seem to outweigh the costs. The benefits could also easily be achieved by simplifying visas and education/work exchange programs to incentivize the exchange of citizens. If you want to move back and forth, then fill out a form and do a background check. We can make this process easier and still protect and benefit our respective countries. Simple as that.
Last edited by johnathanc; 02-20-2014 at 07:50 AM..
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Seriously, it's not that hard and people from all over the world do it every day of the week.
