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Sorry, but your notion that healthcare isn't some kind of ill-informed national obsession isn't quite right in my experience. Heck, I've been singled out by some d1ckhead single-payer Canadian homer down in the States, minding my own business, when I was chatting with two young American women about the Canadian system. When they heard that I was from Canada, they made some kind of naive comment about our supposedly free healthcare system. All I said to these girls in reply is that the system isn't free because it's funded by heavier tax burdens and that because quite a few Canadians have difficulty securing a family doctor, it isn't as ideal as many make it out to be. He, of course, saw it right to interrupt a conversation to which he wasn't a party and incorrectly state in anger that what I was saying wasn't true. What a farkin' tool, and those tools are a dime a dozen when it comes to questioning any one of the holy crucibles of Canadian-ness, health care included.
These types are angry twits, to a man, and I'd wager that these are the people to whom edwardsyzzurphands is alluding: folks who actually know nothing about healthcare or healthcare finance, but who think they're experts simply because they live in Canada. They're a spectacularly ignorant bunch when they get going, actually. Their performances would be funny if they weren't so depressingly and embarrassingly bad.
So some anecdotal experiences equates to a national obsession... I hardly think your experience is indicative of the average Canadian's approach to healthcare. Most Canadians aren't so overtly rude as a matter of fact. Who are you actually referring to - I'd like to know because I've never met these people. Can you provide more insight into who these people are instead of in vague terms as though they are the 'Others' and that most Canadians are these 'Others'
I've been to a number of U.S cities as a Canadian and I've never had any in depth discussion with an American about healthcare or politics in general. Generally it is if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all approach. Its more about the weather and things to do and personal interests and typical niceties that locals and tourists normally engage in...
Personally, I've underscored that there are probably pros/cons to both systems. I prefer the egalitarian nature of our system but I'm not leveling judgment about the American system either, nor would I rudely interrupt your discussion about the topic.
So some anecdotal experiences equates to a national obsession... I hardly think your experience is indicative of the average Canadian's approach to healthcare. Most Canadians aren't so overtly rude as a matter of fact. Who are you actually referring to - I'd like to know because I've never met these people. Can you provide more insight into who these people are instead of in vague terms as though they are the 'Others'
I've been to a number of U.S cities as a Canadian and I've never had any in depth discussion with an American about healthcare or politics in general. Its more about the weather and things to do and personal interests...
Personally, I've underscored that there are probably pros/cons to both systems. I prefer the egalitarian nature of our system but I'm not leveling judgment about it nor would I rudely interrupt your discussion.
I wasn't accusing you of doing that, of course, but this did happen to me, in a gondola at a ski resort. It was funny because I had been chatting with an American friend just minutes earlier that I felt more at ease in the United States because I didn't have to put up with this kind of angry Canadian down there. As if on cue, this guy pops up. What are the odds?
And I've had hundreds of conversations with my fellow Canadians over the years where they obsess about the Canadian single-payer system and its supposed superiority over the American system. Amusingly, it's like a binary exercise to them where there are only two options, Canadian or American, and they presume that every developed country other than the States has a system virtually identical to ours. When you try to discuss how other countries finance their healthcare systems, these fools continue going back to the well of knee-jerk anti-Americanism, bleating over and over that we're not America or some similar tosh. These folks are out there. I know you have to have met them. When I was a younger man, I used to meet people who prattled on with this kind of nonsense all the time. Thankfully, I don't run into too many of these tools anymore.
Yesterday the Social Progress Imperative released their second annual "social progress index" which ranks countries on a variety of factors more aligned with social well-being than economic indicators such as GDP. The usual suspects, New Zealand, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Canada, et al, took their rightful places at the top while, as usual, the United States placed a rather unremarkable sixteenth. Not abysmal yet certainly nothing to write home about.
I would love to say Jamie Sturgeon is an anomaly in Canadian journalism but I've witnessed this unabashed gloating attitude from Macleans, Huffpost.ca, the star, and even CBC. What is it about this need for professional journalists in Canada to mime the behavior of jingoistic internet trolls?
Aside from the unprofessional journalist, does anyone have a problem with these lists on well being and social progress or do you just accept them at face value?
I think a bit of skepticism is healthy when some group comes along with what is a rather subjective criteria for ranking countries.
And I've had hundreds of conversations with my fellow Canadians over the years where they obsess about the Canadian single-payer system and its supposed superiority over the American system. Amusingly, it's like a binary exercise to them where there are only two options, Canadian or American, and they presume that every developed country other than the States has a system virtually identical to ours.
Thank you. I've had the same discussions with Canadians, and it gets tiring when they claim the following:
1) "Americans pay every time they go to the doctor, because they have no health insurance." Well, in some cases, they don't; in others, they do; and sometimes, they have a co-pay or a deductible. Your point about a "binary exercise" is valid, because some Canadians cannot comprehend of anything but a single-payer-government-run system. The fact is, most Americans have some form of health insurance from a private provider such as Cigna or Aetna. I feel sorry for the minority that doesn't, but the fact remains: most Americans have some form of health insurance.
2) "We have a better health care system than the Americans do." That's a matter of debate. What defines "better"? Shorter wait times? All being covered by single-payer insurance? Better technology? More research? My point here is that such a throwaway line is subjective; dependent on what one's definition of "better" is.
3) "We won't go bankrupt when we have a heart attack." This is correct, and we'll be attended to quickly and professionally in such a case; but we forget that a lot of little day-to-day health problems are not covered by our provincial plans. Prescriptions cost money, glasses cost money, dental care costs money, hearing aids cost money. These kind of things can be covered by American insurance plans; Canadian provincial plans do not cover them (except in certain circumstances). Canadians must do that most American of solutions: buy supplementary health insurance for these things if their employer does not provide it.
All that being said, I would not trade our system for that used in the United States, but perhaps this will help fight Canadians' ignorance about how our friends to the south pay for health care, and what they get from it.
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When you try to discuss how other countries finance their healthcare systems, these fools continue going back to the well of knee-jerk anti-Americanism, bleating over and over that we're not America or some similar tosh.
Your friends are correct in one regard: we're not America.
But I'd suggest that that's where the matter should end. I think we should stop comparing our health care system to that of the United States, and start comparing ourselves to other similar, modern Western countries. Can we learn anything from the UK? From France? From Australia? From Germany?
I think Canadians agree that our system needs improvement, but unless and until we stop comparing our system to that of the US (and patting ourselves on the back for not having a system like they do), and start looking at other nations where government-run health care is as revered as it is in Canada, we won't make any progress in this regard. We need to be able to say, "the UK has a good idea when they _____," or "Germany handled _____ really well; what can we learn from that?"
But as long as we look to the US only as a comparison point, and feeling smug on that issue, we're not going to get anywhere. Seriously, fellow Canadians, let's stop looking south (and stopping there, smugly), and start looking elsewhere for ideas on how we can improve our system.
Last edited by ChevySpoons; 04-07-2014 at 01:58 AM..
With respect to this comment - Instead of either, maybe you just seem to gravitate to other Canadian Healthcare professionals because you work in the industry and are underscoring those experiences as opposed to general Canadian experiences with most people in the country.
Trust me, there is nothing professional about the majority of these conversations. The majority of the time these people have no connection to the Healthcare Industry at all.
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I highly doubt you've spoken to most people in Canada or Toronto for that matter and it just doesn't seem reflective of the average Canadian or Torontonian to pass detailed judgement on American healthcare when most people don't know much about it really.
Of course I haven't spoken to most or the majority of Candians, heck I've barely spoken to more than half the people at my company We are speaking very generally in this thread for the most part. The point I am trying to make is that whenever I am attacked or confronted about the US Healthcare system it is typically by a Canadian, within or even outside of their country.
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If you spoke to me about healthcare (Torontonian who apparently feels he is a healthcare expert even though he never said he was) i'd simply listen to what you had to say without professing to be any type of subject matter expert.
Well, because you're not as A$$hole man : )
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What I would say is that there is probably a bit of smugness and also surprise amongst Canadians that Canada has universal healthcare and the U.S does not. I'm not saying one system is better than the other (in reality each probably has its pro/con mix) just saying it is a source of national pride in the country that there is universal healthcare. This really speaks to a general sense that we are a more egalitarian society. They did a poll on who Canadians thought was the greatest Canadian and it was Tommy Douglass, the guy who championed universal healthcare in the country, more so than past Prime Ministers or War heroes. A Robin Hood figure is our hero in a sense whereas in the U.S it might be more along the lines of a Napoleonic figure.
Sure, be proud of your system, but why does the US always have to be the measuring stick when it comes to Healthcare? There are other countries in this world last I checked.
The part that really gets me when having these "Healthcare policy" discussions is the complete avoidance of recognizing that the US Healthcare system went through a massive change within the past few years. When I am confronted with this topic I flat out ask them what specific part of the new legislation they disagree with, I am not in the least bit surprised that they completely glossed over this massive piece of legislation and are focusing on the OLD American Healthcare System, not our new reality.
Sorry but I didn't spend time reading every single page of all 6 versions of the PPACA, along with the Supreme Court ruling to have a conversation with some dimwit about the way things used to be.
Chevy makes a great point about looking for inspiration in other Healthcare systems around the globe. The way the US system is structured as compared to the Canadian system, does not lend itself to easy comparisons at all. Structurally they are so different that most comparisons should never be made (By both sides) Why do you think that when the US was writing their HC reform legislation they sent experts to study the Swiss, Dutch and Massachusetts reforms and not Canada? Because it would be next to impossible to transform the US system into one that resembles the Canadian model.
American politicians on both sides of the aisle represent Americans and their concerns. I care about all the same kinds of issues that anyone, anywhere thinks about, but I care most about those issues that are specific to the US, because that's where I live, that's where I raise kids, that's where my kids go to school, that's where I work, that's where I pay taxes.
For me, there are FAR bigger fish to fry in the US than dumb comments politicians make about Canada in order to score points, or the possibility that those same comments will offend Canadians. As a US resident, it is irrelevant to me.
So, no. I do. not. care.
And if you're going to be continually offended by what you perceive as Canada being "held up to public ridicule by talking heads" on US television, I don't understand why you'd want to buy a home here in the first place.
As I've said, there is far greater diversity of thought in the US, and I'm sure you've heard some pretty different ideas. You gotta learn to chilll; you gotta learn to have a thicker skin; you gotta learn to accept and respect the validity of all kinds of worldviews, ideas and lifestyles you would never experience in Canada.
If you ask me, that's a small price to pay for the home in Florida that you love, the reasonable green fees and the life satisfaction. Then again, you can always move to Vancouver Island, and then you won't be offended by anything.
Once again you are missing my point. AND once again I will try to clarify. The U.S. is a wonderful country that offers many opportunities for enjoyment of life to all walks of people, including Canadian retirees.
You are taking a critcism of a particular item and interpreting it to mean I dislike the country and it's people. Jeez louise; you're accusing me of the very thing you're doing in every rebuttal you've made so far with that well know sobriquet of "you don't like it here why come? thrown in for good measure.
How many freak'n times do I have to say or prove my affection for the people and the country to you, it's the talking heads and those who repeat their nonsense I dislike; END OF STORY.
You are the one attributing a generalized dislike by me for everything American.
What planet are you from where it would seem reasonable to strike a country off your list of destinations for either work or pleasure because you dislike hearing a few nutjobs spouting crap about your home country. Why does everything have to be so darned polarized with you folks it's either black or white (or red or blue) without any room for grey in there at all.
A "greater diversity of thought" is not what you're exemplifying with your rebuttals to my opinion. You're basically saying if I don't like the gravy I should throw out the stew. That ain't a very stellar demonstration of "diversity of thought". We'll just have to agree to disagree on that Diversity thingy as your two party polarized political quagmire certainly does not demonstrate a superior "diversity of thought"? Cripes!
We're accepting of more diversity from foreign countries with fully 20% of our population being from immigration sources. Those folks bring with them "diversity of thought" we cannot, and choose not to avoid. If you could, you should tune into any one of the Provincial Houses of Legislature real time broadcasts and you'll see real diversity of thought being practiced on a grand scale with traditional dress of any number of foreign nations being represented by sitting elected members. That's putting "diversity of thought" rubber to the road.
Want to have a discussiona about abortion without the 'religious right' tenets running the show?
'Euthanasia on compassionate grounds' ever going to get discussed without DEATH PANELS shouted from the cheap seats?
Gay rights issue, either through marriage or in the military, being entertained as a diversification of thought?
Come back on here when any of those things, among a host of others rigidly polarized along either religious or party lines, are discussed in a reasonable and sane manner and we'll be able to have a Diversity of Thought discussion on an equal footing. Til then I'd not float that balloon again.
the part that really gets me when having these "healthcare policy" discussions is the complete avoidance of recognizing that the us healthcare system went through a massive change within the past few years. When i am confronted with this topic i flat out ask them what specific part of the new legislation they disagree with, i am not in the least bit surprised that they completely glossed over this massive piece of legislation and are focusing on the old american healthcare system, not our new reality.
Sorry but i didn't spend time reading every single page of all 6 versions of the ppaca, along with the supreme court ruling to have a conversation with some dimwit about the way things used to be.
Chevy makes a great point about looking for inspiration in other healthcare systems around the globe. The way the us system is structured as compared to the canadian system, does not lend itself to easy comparisons at all. Structurally they are so different that most comparisons should never be made (by both sides) why do you think that when the us was writing their hc reform legislation they sent experts to study the swiss, dutch and massachusetts reforms and not canada? because it would be next to impossible to transform the us system into one that resembles the canadian model.
I guess I shouldn't say its impossible, because anything can be done, but the question is why would we want the US to shift towards a true single payer system? Very few countries have true Single Payer systems. Canada, Taiwan and UK are the main examples of countries that have a true Single Payer system, the rest rely on a multiple private insurer "all payer" system structure.
The problem with the US is not that it is private insurer based, but rather that the private insurance industry does not offer enough competing options to drive costs down in a meaningful way. In Germany you can choose from 150 different plans, The Swiss can choose from over a 100 and the Dutch 50. Hospital systems in the US are financially geared towards competing for business and having the freedom to negotiate their own rates based on performance and innovation in their delivery model not mandated rates.
Finally the fact still remains that over 2.3 million people are gainfully employed in the private insurance industry, what do you propose Health Insurers do with these employees once they no longer exist? I know the boogeyman in the room is always the Health Insurance Industry, but the fact still remains that on average most insurers return a 2.2% profit margin each year. Is there waste that can be cleaned up? Of course; were insurers granted too much leeway in the past when it comes to rejecting claims and all out rejecting coverage based on pre-existing conditions? Yes. The ACA clamps down on those abuses and additional oversight and enforcement on the government side is welcome, but throwing away an entire industry that has been the basis of funding the healthcare system is not only stupid but disastrous.
I live in a State that went on their own and reformed their system to a Universal coverage model, with private insurers as the main source of coverage. Currently Massachusetts has achieved 98.7% coverage. These reforms have been so successful that the Dutch modeled their system after MASS (Mass reforms started in 2006, Dutch 2008). The Netherlands now is viewed as one of the best Healthcare models in the world and if Massachusetts was its own country I assume that it would be rated similarly.
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We are speaking very generally in this thread for the most part. The point I am trying to make is that whenever I am attacked or confronted about the US Healthcare system it is typically by a Canadian, within or even outside of their country. 
