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Old 04-27-2014, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,082 posts, read 14,264,361 times
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Quote:
I understood what the OP meant. And I was explaining that even if there were no
controls, Americans moving to Canada would not qualify for any of those things.
Americans would not even qualify for refugee status because there is no
such thing as refugees between Canada and America
. They would qualify
for no benefits of any kind unless they became Canadian citizens and
non-citizens who are overwhelmingly in need of such services as you listed above
would not qualify to become Canadian citizens, they wouldn't even be allowed in
the country. It is extremely difficult for Canadian citizen who qualify for
social services to actually get social services. Why would it be made easy for
non-citizens when it is difficult for citizens?
There may not be such a thing as a US citizen refugee, but are you aware of the travel sanctions put in place by the Canadian government in 2009 re travellers from Mexico? They need a special visa to visit. Why? Because many immediately declare refugee status.
That's what we really need. Throw open the borders and have Mexican illegals from the US flooding in.
I can see it already. Crowds of men standing outside Canadian Tire looking for jobs. Why hire a landscaper or roofer for $12 to $40 an hour when one of these guys will do it for $5?
Again...no thank you. Canada has nothing to gain and everything to lose.
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Old 04-27-2014, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
3,603 posts, read 3,350,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
1) that many Canadians often use those higher rates of passport ownership as a way to somehow prove that they're more sophisticated than Americans (ie world travellers), when MOST travel that Canadians do is to the US. That is a fact.
It may well be, but perhaps you could put a finer point on it.

It is true that until a few years after 9/11, Canadians did not need a passport to go the the USA. A passport for Canadians was a requirement by the US government. Prior to that, just a birth certificate and photo ID (or even less--I well recall being admitted to the US many times on an oral declaration of citizenship) was required. I did not have a Canadian passport until I was 17, in spite of making many visits to the US with my parents. I got that passport in order to travel to Europe, and never used it to enter the US.

But in those days, my impression was that many more Canadians than Americans held passports. Let's face it, with our winter, wouldn't you want to get away? And so, Canadians held passports to use to get to Caribbean and Central/South American destinations, European destinations, and so on.

So you see, by "finer point," I mean historically. Why, for example, did more Canadians prior to 9/11 (on a percentage basis) hold passports than Americans? Canadians did not need them to go to the US, though they often travelled there. What else, except overseas travel, were Canadians using passports for?

Quote:
I never said that there are NO Canadians who travel abroad (why on earth would I say that?), but that MOST do not. There may very well be more Canadians than Americans who do; I haven't taken the time to research it, though I'm sure you or someone else on this thread will, and will tell me your findings (Canadians always take the time to arm themselves with stats to compare themselves favorably to Americans).
You may be correct here, but maybe not. I'll explain.

There are a number of Canadians who consider themselves well-travelled, but their experiences are not what I (for example) would consider to be well-travelled. Annual winter getaways to resorts in Jamaica, St. Lucia, or Aruba, are not the same as exploring London, experiencing the Plaka in Athens, or finding oneself in the souk of Tangiers. But a Jamaican resort is not the same as the Tangiers souk.

It seems to me that "well-travelled" is in the eye of the beholder. One Canadian may consider himself well-travelled if he has been to Jamaica, Cuba, and the US; another may consider himself "well-travelled" if he has been to six European countries, a few in Africa, Hong Kong or Beijing, and Australia and/or New Zealand, at the very least.

In short, "travelling abroad" means different things to different Canadians, and whether most Canadian passport holders travel abroad or not, is up to them. Regardless, I do not think that we can draw a correlation/causation between the number of Canadian passport holders and their desire to visit the US.

Quote:
2) that, though fewer Americans own passports, Americans are better travelled within the US than Canadians are within Canada. That is not insignificant. I think choosing to travel one's own country, particularly countries as large and diverse as the US and Canada, is wise, and can be highly educational. There might be some Canadians who choose to travel within Canada and to expose their kids to what Canada has to offer, but they are a minority.
I think there are three things stopping Canadians from exploring their country more fully: time, distance, and expense.

Canada might as well be Chile: long and thin. Oh, Canada looks huge on a map, but most of the places people want to see and to be in, are in a long thin strip, 5000 miles long and maybe 200 miles wide. Within this strip, you'll find the major cities, great tourist attractions (Banff National Park, for example), and all kinds of other cool stuff.

But things are far, and many "exotic" Canadian destinations, such as Churchill MB, cannot be accessed by road. The Toronto family of four that wants to visit Vancouver via air must purchase four seats, and spend five hours getting there (and five hours back)--the cost would be in the four figures, not including hotel. By train, it's three days; and again, cost would be in the four figures. By road, it's five days--cost might be less than four figures, but sleeping in the car at a provincial welcome centre's parking lot isn't what I'd call fun. However, a tour package of Jamaica, including flights and hotel, might be half the cost and half (or so) of the time involved in getting there. Guess which that Toronto family would be most likely to opt for, especially during a hard winter?

I've had the privilege to drive this country coast-to-coast a few times. I love it, and enjoy my trips--the people I meet, the places I've stumbled across--fantastic, and I value my experiences. But it is hard to convince my fellow Canadians that they should attempt the same thing. "Why should I spend my time off work driving four days between Alberta and Toronto?" they ask; just before asking, "And why shouldn't I spend my vacation in Jamaica?" Sadly I have no answer other than, "You don't know what you're missing."
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,777 posts, read 37,738,562 times
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The short answer to "why not" is that Canadians are stressed about guns and anything loosely related to crime coming in from the U.S., and Americans are stressed about terrorism coming in from anywhere in the world, and this includes Canada.
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Old 04-28-2014, 08:12 AM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,386,448 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
Yes, passport ownership is higher in Canada than in the US. As a Canadian, I've always known that. And, of course, I do not consider domestic travel the same as travelling for a foreign experience.

There might be some Canadians who choose to travel within Canada and to expose their kids to what Canada has to offer, but they are a minority.

If you and a couple of other posters on here have travelled a lot within Canada, I'm sure you realize that, compared to you, most Canadians haven't.
Oh c'mon here. You have to realize that demographics and geography all play a part in making such a claim extremely irrelevant.

U.S. citizens find it possible to make a claim they've travelled to many other states by simply indulging in just one day of car driving whereas someone in Ontario, for one example, could use three days just to cross the one province. How would that question go? "Where y'all been to?" Answer; in miles driven or states visited vs province crossed?

Fully 20% of our population have immigrated here from all points of the compass and once settled tend to get down to the business of raising a family and acquiring a foothold. That does not in any way make that demographic "less cultured" or less urbane. They may have hit three other continents on their way getting here.

Now as to your blanket claim of more Americans travelling throughout their own country; that simply does not jibe with what I've noted in my years of travel throughout the lesser known back streets of America with an RV. Even in RV parks, it was common to meet other RV'ers who had not been out of their own state, ever, although they had been RV'ers for years.

There are over 350 million of you and on a percentage or per-capita basis, I'd be more than willing to take a bet on age demographic profiles of domestic travel being similar in both countries.
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Old 04-29-2014, 01:22 AM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
3,603 posts, read 3,350,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Now as to your blanket claim of more Americans travelling throughout their own country; that simply does not jibe with what I've noted in my years of travel throughout the lesser known back streets of America with an RV. Even in RV parks, it was common to meet other RV'ers who had not been out of their own state, ever, although they had been RV'ers for years.

There are over 350 million of you and on a percentage or per-capita basis, I'd be more than willing to take a bet on age demographic profiles of domestic travel being similar in both countries.
BruSan, let's cut the Americans a little slack.

Do they travel, with their RVs, far from home? Well, some will, some won't. Not too different from Canadians with RVs, I'd wager. I don't expect Nova Scotians with RVs here in Alberta (though that can certainly happen), just as I don't expect to see Albertan RVs on the roads of Nova Scotia.

I do think, though, that many more Americans see America by road than Canadians see Canada the same way. The American in St. Louis (for example) might drive to Chicago; while the Winnipegger will fly to Calgary. About the same distance, but the Canadian flies, while the American considers driving.

Perhaps Canadians are too awestruck by the size of their country, and decide that the only way to see it is by flying to their destinations. Or, they need to be someplace quickly (I once made a morning meeting in Toronto, got a flight to Vancouver that day, and made the afternoon meeting at our company's office there).

Regardless, I will agree that Americans have more choices. California? Florida? Washington? Colorado? At any time of the year? The sky's the limit. A little more choice than we in Canada have: yes, southern Ontario can be unbearably hot and humid in July, and southern Alberta in June is like the rainy season in Vietnam according to Forrest Gump: the rain never stops. But in fact (and I say this as a proud Canadian who would never leave), Canada is, quite frankly, six months of winter.
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Old 04-29-2014, 07:47 AM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,648,037 times
Reputation: 7872
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post

There are a number of Canadians who consider themselves well-travelled, but their experiences are not what I (for example) would consider to be well-travelled. Annual winter getaways to resorts in Jamaica, St. Lucia, or Aruba, are not the same as exploring London, experiencing the Plaka in Athens, or finding oneself in the souk of Tangiers. But a Jamaican resort is not the same as the Tangiers souk.

It seems to me that "well-travelled" is in the eye of the beholder. One Canadian may consider himself well-travelled if he has been to Jamaica, Cuba, and the US; another may consider himself "well-travelled" if he has been to six European countries, a few in Africa, Hong Kong or Beijing, and Australia and/or New Zealand, at the very least.

In short, "travelling abroad" means different things to different Canadians, and whether most Canadian passport holders travel abroad or not, is up to them. Regardless, I do not think that we can draw a correlation/causation between the number of Canadian passport holders and their desire to visit the US.

I think there are three things stopping Canadians from exploring their country more fully: time, distance, and expense.

"
Agree.

A 4 day winter vacation during xmas to the Caribeans is not "travelling". The Americans don't need to because they have Florida and California for that purpose. And they don't need a passport for that.

I don't find many well travelled Canadians. Trips in anywhere in North America is not really "travel". Limited trips in west Europe shouldn't be considered "well travelled" either.

We travel to learn differet cultures in addition to interesting landscape. By visiting the US and some excluded resorts in Meixco or Virgin Island where you hardly see a local person, you are exposed to nothing new.

How many of the passport holding Canadians really traveled outside North America/west Europe that ends at Vienna?

Last edited by botticelli; 04-29-2014 at 08:51 AM..
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
9,588 posts, read 5,798,554 times
Reputation: 11115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Oh c'mon here. You have to realize that demographics and geography all play a part in making such a claim extremely irrelevant.

U.S. citizens find it possible to make a claim they've travelled to many other states by simply indulging in just one day of car driving whereas someone in Ontario, for one example, could use three days just to cross the one province. How would that question go? "Where y'all been to?" Answer; in miles driven or states visited vs province crossed?

Fully 20% of our population have immigrated here from all points of the compass and once settled tend to get down to the business of raising a family and acquiring a foothold. That does not in any way make that demographic "less cultured" or less urbane. They may have hit three other continents on their way getting here.

Now as to your blanket claim of more Americans travelling throughout their own country; that simply does not jibe with what I've noted in my years of travel throughout the lesser known back streets of America with an RV. Even in RV parks, it was common to meet other RV'ers who had not been out of their own state, ever, although they had been RV'ers for years.

There are over 350 million of you and on a percentage or per-capita basis, I'd be more than willing to take a bet on age demographic profiles of domestic travel being similar in both countries.

Okay. My first post on this thread was in response to another poster who suggested that Americans are insular because they have comparatively lower rates of passport ownership (the subtext, of course, being that Canadians, with their higher numbers of passport holders, were somehow more cultured and sophisticated). Given what I have seen and experienced regarding travel practices amongst Canadians and Americans, I think this is a tenuous hypothesis, though one some Canadians often employ.

I respectfully disagree regarding comparative rates of domestic travel between the two countries. Yes, it is expensive to travel in Canada (I know that first-hand), but Canadians underestimate the costs of travelling the US. Really (as you know). I personally believe that some Canadians use cost as an excuse to not travel Canada more. The truth (if they were to admit it) is that, for some strange reason, they're not particularly interested in seeing more of Canada.

And, BruSan, you're giving me - a child of immigrants - a lesson on what (geographic) hoops immigrants jump through to get to Canada, and the sacrifices they often must make once they arrive.

Really, there is no need to exert yourself on that subject with me. I would NEVER suggest that immigrants are "less urbane", as you say, for perhaps not travelling much once they arrive in Canada. On the contrary, I think most immigrants can be considerably more adventurous and greater risk-takers than are native-born Canadians. To leave one's home country, one's family, one's friends, (perhaps) one's first language, and everything one knows to go to a new country takes TREMENDOUS chutzpah, and I have nothing but admiration and respect for anyone who does it.

You also used the words less cultured in quotation marks, as though I had used those terms in reference to people who may not travel much. I did not, nor would I. Travelling takes money, and I agree with Chevy when he/she says that cost is a major reason people may not travel, or at least as much as they would like to. Cost, unfortunately, poses a major impediment to MY travel goals. I would love to see more of the world than I am able to.

I must admit, however, that I haven't gotten around to renewing my passport.

Last edited by newdixiegirl; 04-29-2014 at 09:07 AM..
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Cambridge, MA/London, UK
3,849 posts, read 5,253,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Agree.

A 4 day winter vacation during xmas to the Caribeans is not "travelling". The Americans don't need to because they have Florida and California for that purpose. And they don't need a passport for that.

I don't find many well travelled Canadians. Trips in anywhere in North America is not really "travel". Limited trips in west Europe shouldn't be considered "well travelled" either.

We travel to learn difficult cultures. By visiting the US and some excluded resorts in Meixco or Virgin Island where you hardly see a local person, you are exposed to nothing new.

How many of the passport holding Canadians really traveled outside North America/west Europe that ends at Vienna?
It actually would be interesting to see a breakdown of which countries are the final destinations from both Canada and The US.

Personally I don't care where people choose to spend their money and time when it comes to vacationing, but I personally choose to stay as far away from All Inclusive resort type travel as possible. I did it once (Was convinced by a group of my Canadian friends while living in Toronto) And my wife and I were counting down the minutes to when we could get the hell away. Never again.

But to equate passport ownership with being "worldly" on its own, is a bit strange. People have no idea what those passports are being used for.
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
9,588 posts, read 5,798,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
It actually would be interesting to see a breakdown of which countries are the final destinations from both Canada and The US.

Personally I don't care where people choose to spend their money and time when it comes to vacationing, but I personally choose to stay as far away from All Inclusive resort type travel as possible. I did it once (Was convinced by a group of my Canadian friends while living in Toronto) And my wife and I were counting down the minutes to when we could get the hell away. Never again.

But to equate passport ownership with being "worldly" on its own, is a bit strange. People have no idea what those passports are being used for.
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:58 AM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,386,448 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
Okay. My first post on this thread was in response to another poster who suggested that Americans are insular because they have comparatively lower rates of passport ownership (the subtext, of course, being that Canadians, with their higher numbers of passport holders, were somehow more cultured and sophisticated). Given what I have seen and experienced regarding travel practices amongst Canadians and Americans, I think this is a tenuous hypothesis, though one some Canadians often employ.

I respectfully disagree regarding rates of domestic travel between the two countries. Yes, it is expensive to travel in Canada (I know that first-hand), but Canadians underestimate the costs of travelling the US. Really (as you know). I personally believe that some Canadians use cost as an excuse to not travel Canada more. The truth (if they were to admit it) is that, for some strange reason, they're not particularly interested in seeing more of Canada.

And, BruSan, you're giving me - a child of immigrants - a lesson on what (geographic) hoops immigrants jump through to get to Canada, and the sacrifices they often must make once they arrive.

Really, there is no need to exert yourself on that subject with me. I would NEVER suggest that immigrants are "less urbane", as you say, for perhaps not travelling much once they arrive in Canada. On the contrary, I think most immigrants can be considerably more adventurous and greater risk-takers than are native-born Canadians. To leave one's home country, one's family, one's friends, (perhaps) one's first language, and everything one knows to go to a new country takes TREMENDOUS chutzpah, and I have nothing but admiration and respect for anyone who does it.

You also used the words less cultured in quotation marks, as though I had used those terms in reference to people who may not travel much. I did not, nor would I. Travelling takes money, and I agree with Chevy when he/she says that cost is a major reason people may not travel, or at least as much as they would like to. Cost, unfortunately, poses a major impediment to MY travel goals. I would love to see more of the world than I am able to.

I must admit, however, that I haven't gotten around to renewing my passport.
It certainly was not my intent to give you a lesson or as Americans are wont to say "school you" in any manner.

My abruptness comes from far too many of these threads finding their genesis in attempting to chide or berate one citizenry or another using some silly comparator or another. I must renew my efforts to contain my elderly "prickliness" that is all too characteristic of the senior demographic that comes from knowing we have less time left to convince, and lose patience far too quickly.

In keeping with the topic of the thread I do not at this time think an open border would serve either of us well due to the immaturity of either of our Federal governments alone. I cannot but believe that the economic welfare of Canada would suffer through the sheer might of your negotiating clout to force compliance of too many sacrifices on our part too quickly for our much smaller economy to accommodate it without harm.

Fears of an increase in crime or jobs loss are not my banner as I think crime will increase regardless due to immigrants from wherever, not just those from the U.S. and greater jobs competition might induce a form of individual spirit in our tech/mech sector now severely lacking in my eyes.

Not to put too fine a point on it but perhaps an infusion of some fresh applicants with the "let's git 'er dun" spirit we used to be known for might not be a bad thing.
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