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There is a consensus among those in the thread who have lived in both countries. The consensus is that Canada is more expensive. This includes myself, Botticelli, Ilikemike91, MadeinScotts, and to a signficant degree JonathanC. Those who are saying otherwise all seem to be the same ones who haven't lived in both countries. In addition to this, statistics clearly show that Americans have significantly more disposable income, while at the same time enjoy a lower cost of living and generally lower taxation. This is not an opinion, it is fact.
For the record, I for one have no intention of slagging off on Canada's middle class. I would be happy to be a middle class person in Canada. If for some reason I got kicked out of the US and could never return, I would choose Canada without a second thought. Like you say, there generally is not a massive difference between the US and Canadian middle class, but there is also massive regional differences. The northeast is very unequal due to many wealthy residents, but Utah for example has inequality comparable to northern Europe, while also retaining a higher standard of living. (Interestingly enough, Utah is a die-hard conservative state). The same can be said of Canada, where the average Albertan is clearly richer than his counterpart in PEI or Newfoundland, but at the same time Alberta is one of the most unequal provinces in the country.
Yes, I couldn't agree more and I think several have expressed this, including Botticelli just a few posts back. The US is more unequal than Canada, just like Britain is more unequal than Ukraine. There is a greater disparity of wealth in the US than in Canada, period. And I say that by looking at the poorest in America as well as the richest, and then looking at that in Canada. Alberta, as stated before is more unequal than Newfoundland. Yet Canadians flock to Alberta, and let's be honest few want to live in Newfoundland.
Inequality is a "buzzword" that can be seriously misused. At first glance inequality evokes notions of aristocrats ruling over masses of peasants, or even outright slave labor. But inequality isn't always a bad thing. For example a group of three men making 50k, 80k, and 150k are more unequal than a group of three men making 10k, 9k, and 11k. In addition, places with booming economies tend to be "unequal" as new wealth is created. Again, this is why Alberta is so much more unequal than Manitoba. Alberta used to be very equal like Manitoba, but since the amazing growth of the Albertan economy in recent years, Alberta has become among the most unequal provinces.
Botticelli estimated COL is about 15% higher in Canada. So if here mean income is ~70K, then that is about equivelant to 55-60K USD which is considerably higher than most states after a quick Wiki-check. Even if this pans out evenly, what's the advantage of being middle class in the USA? This doesn't factor in the cuts to social services that are given more attention here in Canada, but I'm not gonna open that can of worms in this thread. There's no obvious advantage of being in the USA as an aberage Joe or poor Joe I can think of other than better weather or better shopping selection. Without a doubt, nobody would rather be poor in the USA, I'm sure. I just don't see what's worth arguing about in this thread.
By the way, in spite of everything I just said, I completely hate the average 'middle class' lifestyle anyways. I don't even want to defend it for what it is. When I look around my neighbourhood I see people with three vehicles in the driveway of their 400K suburban home, with a small boat on a trailer, a summer cottage, two dogs, and a bunch of kids. A lot of youth actually completely expect this out of life as the bare minimum standard of living as they put themselves through school. Nobody really needs all this stuff to be be happy or considered financially moderate. It's ridiculous, selfish and it kind of bothers me. I don't like nor can I relate to the need to own a bunch of things just to fit in with the families who live around me. I think the definition of middle class needs a solid tweeking across the board because it's just too resource-heavy for this planet right now.
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Having said all that, I do somewhat resent the notion that Canada doesn't represent opportunity for go getter or high achievers.. Perhaps the go getters and high achievers who stay in Canada are happy to be closer to family/friends and also to see their country succeed - I'd consider myself in that category. I'm proud to be a Canadian and I want to see my country succeed so I stay here, work hard, pay good taxes and help my company to reach new heights and for me I feel great about that as opposed to leaving my country to support another for personal reasons... Hey i'm a noble and patriotic guy
So yeah - I love Canada and am a Proud Canadian and would put that ahead of making a few more bucks for an American Multinational or other foreign Corporation...
Well, that's great. But I somewhat resent the notion that people who choose to move to another country do so just to make "a few more bucks," or that they somehow lack loyalty.
You do realize, that in your assessment, you are including the MILLIONS who have emigrated to Canada (including my own parents) and on whom Canada (and the US, respectively) is highly dependent? Would you say that THEY all came to Canada for money or that they are devoid of pride for their home countries? And don't say that those examples are different from Canadians moving to the US, because they're not.
Your choice works for you. If everyone the world over shared your sentiments, though, countries like Canada and the US never would have been settled in the first place.They also would not have become the dynamic, prosperous, diverse countries they are today.
People choose to emigrate for lots of reasons, most of which have nothing to do with money:
They emigrate for love; they leave their home countries to escape violence, poverty, persecution;
they settle in another country to join family members who settled there before them;
they emigrate to take exciting new career challenges; they move to be closer to water or mountains;
they move for political or legal reasons; they emigrate for health reasons; they move to go to school;
they emigrate for a better climate;
they emigrate for what they consider a better life or perhaps just a different life;
some move long distance simply for the adventure; some move for nothing more than a change of scenery;
and finally, yes, there are people who emigrate to be able to become more materially successful, however they define that.
My former husband and I chose to go to the US because my husband was offered a good opportunity with his company and because we saw it as adventure. And it was. But the #1 reason I wanted to go was because escaping the long, dark winters had long been a priority for me. So, even though we moved to a winter state at that time, it was a step in the right direction, literally. Money didn't play a big part in our decision.
The way I see it, ex-pat Canadians are fulfilling an essential role by disseminating "Canadianness" around the globe to places that benefit from it.
Last edited by newdixiegirl; 09-26-2014 at 10:12 PM..
I've previously said that I don't think there is a "material" difference in lifestyle for the "average" American or Canadian. There are more differences at the high income and lower income brackets. It's more than just gross income that matters, it's actual after-tax purchasing power. On average, its seems that the US has on average about 15% more in this regard (although your right, this gap has come down over time) but after considering education, healthcare, pensions, and transfer payments - I think these things eat up a chunk of that 15% for many everyday people. So even if the average American still has 4-5% more purchasing power, I just don't consider this a major economic difference in terms of lifestyle. It's basically the same. But the cost of all the comparable items mentioned like housing, telecom, cable, cars, liquor, clothes, airline tickets, restaurants, income tax rates, etc. are all cheaper/lower on average in the US regardless if you shop at discount outlets in Canada on a personal level. That's why Americans have more purchasing power. One can always do the exact same thing as you do in any US or Canadian city - rent (not buy) in an older, less flashy building and shop in discount stores to cut costs (very prudent way of living mind you). But it still doesn't change the fact that comparable goods & services and taxes are different in both countries, Canadian complain about this enough in the press.
Great Post!!
I'm a bit of a value conscious freak.. I have a good disposable income but if I can save money I will and put away for retirement/travel
I've actually priced items in Dollar Tree Stores in MI vs Dollarama stores in Canada and the prices aren't that much different for a lot of day to day items.. Generally speaking I do think overall the price of goods and services in the U.S is cheaper (though not a whole lot cheaper. 10 - 15 percent is really a generalized best guess that is neat and tidy but is that really the case, i'm honestly not really sure - I think it varies and is easy to just say that based on a generic article or prevailing viewpoint or anecdotal experiences from any CD member really) Anyway, what is the comparison.. American brands in the U.S and Canada or just similar items period where label brand makes no difference. For example - a 2 liter bottle of Selection pop (can't buy that brand in the U.S) from food basics is .88c - that is roughly what an Amercan would pay for generic brand of soda at Dollar Tree which is probably the cheapest U.S store I've seen goods at.. Actually on a recent trip I did see Stars and Stripes 3 liter Big Bottle of soda for 1 Dollar which makes it cheaper per liter but I just thought wow a 3 liter bottle of soda like wouldn't it go flat - only in America lol..
Anyway - if you wanna buy a small cheap 19 inch Insignia LED TV at Best buy and you live in either country... DON'T cross the border.. Exact same TV for exactly the same sale price in both countries!
I have yet to find a clothing store with the same dollar for dollar value as Urban Planet in Toronto vs anything in the U.S and i'm very serious... Waiting and looking to see if I find one but not yet! I don't buy labelled brand clothing at all and still have no clue why so many Canadians cross the border to shop at Premium and Tanger outlets for inferior quality American labelled clothing and goods.. As a matter of fact I haven't bought a suit in Canada or the U.S in as long as I can remember (get em from Thailand which is truly a great value and because i'm a smaller guy actually they fit so much better - I get em tailored made). As for Airline tickets - be careful with that.. Flying domestically in Canada is pricier than the U.S that is for sure but flying Internationally that is not always the case.. Do an expedia search between Philadelphia and London England and between Toronto and London England from time to time and compare... You can get some really great International fares out of T.O and part of that is the number of Carriers operating internationally out of Pearson.. Perhaps as well i'm being Toronto centric because as much as people think that T.O is totally overpriced, what they have to account for is that if R.E isn't in the mix - because the city is one of the largest in either Canada or the U.S you have a lot more competition for day to day items across the spectrum from food, clothing, goods you name it and there are benefits to that vs more rural cities/towns..
Aside from all these details I do agree with your post about being able to find bargain items in both countries. Even if we assume the COL for day to day goods is 10-15 percent higher in Canada, Education, HC, Pensions etc would indeed probably eat into that so you are absolutely right - materially it probably isn't that much different for most middle income people in either country.
Btw congrats on the property investment in Thailand.. I have an American friend from D.C who lived up here for awhile and he has done the same thing.. Good luck with it!
By the way, in spite of everything I just said, I completely hate the average 'middle class' lifestyle anyways. I don't even want to defend it for what it is. When I look around my neighbourhood I see people with three vehicles in the driveway of their 400K suburban home, with a small boat on a trailer, a summer cottage, two dogs, and a bunch of kids. A lot of youth actually completely expect this out of life as the bare minimum standard of living as they put themselves through school. Nobody really needs all this stuff to be be happy or considered financially moderate. It's ridiculous, selfish and it kind of bothers me. I don't like nor can I relate to the need to own a bunch of things just to fit in with the families who live around me. I think the definition of middle class needs a solid tweeking across the board because it's just too resource-heavy for this planet right now.
Ah you are young - wait until you are married and start having kids and into your 30's... You'll be like the rest of em
Zoisite, I generally respect your arguments, but you are misunderstanding how international debt works and unintentionally over-exaggerating it's importance.
Richer countries, especially those with the largest markets and highest productivity and output, tend to have the largest debt. Why? Because ...........
You are correct, I was misunderstanding how international debt works. Your explanation has provided me with a more understanding perspective of the system (I'm challenged in this regard and had to think hard about it, but I think I got it.)
Well, that's great. But I somewhat resent the notion that people who choose to move to another country do so just to make "a few more bucks," or that they somehow lack loyalty.
You do realize, that in your assessment, you are including the MILLIONS who have emigrated to Canada (including my own parents) and on whom Canada (and the US, respectively) is highly dependent? Would you say that THEY all came to Canada for money or that they are devoid of pride for their home countries? And don't say that those examples are different from Canadians moving to the US, because they're not.
Your choice works for you. If everyone the world over shared your sentiments, though, countries like Canada and the US never would have been settled in the first place.They also would not have become the dynamic, prosperous, diverse countries they are today.
People choose to emigrate for lots of reasons, most of which have nothing to do with money:
They emigrate for love; they leave their home countries to escape violence, poverty, persecution;
they settle in another country to join family members who settled there before them;
they emigrate to take exciting new career challenges; they move to be closer to water or mountains;
they move for political or legal reasons; they emigrate for health reasons; they move to go to school;
they emigrate for a better climate;
they emigrate for what they consider a better life or perhaps just a different life;
some move long distance simply for the adventure; some move for nothing more than a change of scenery;
and finally, yes, there are people who emigrate to be able to become more materially successful, however they define that.
My former husband and I chose to go to the US because my husband was offered a good opportunity with his company and because we saw it as adventure. And it was. But the #1 reason I wanted to go was because escaping the long, dark winters had long been a priority for me. So, even though we moved to a winter state at that time, it was a step in the right direction, literally. Money didn't play a big part in our decision.
The way I see it, ex-pat Canadians are fulfilling an essential role by disseminating "Canadianness" around the globe to places that benefit from it.
I can totally get moving to another country for a better life... Having said that moving from Canada to the U.S or the U.S to Canada is not like moving from Djibouti to Canada or Yemen to the U.S - you aren't going to get a much better life crossing our borders.. You aren't moving to get away from persecution or poor future prospects so yeah, I kind of do question why one would want to permanently leave their homeland if not for love or some really good professional reason(s)...
Anyway, It is an individual choice and I am not going to say that what is right for me has to be right for everyone else! I would never presume to split up a family either so naturally if your husband is an American and you are Canadian well one has to leave the homeland and I understand that.. I'm speaking more to an individual who really does have an easy choice and just leaves for the dollar and that is it.. I mean think of it this way, what will happen to our Country if so many leave for foreign lands to line the pockets of foreign companies that will do nothing substantive for our nation.. Again, if you feel that in this life you best serve your nation as an Ambassador than that is fine but that ain't for me and it doesn't sit well for me personally. I think i'm doing more for our nation right here where I am making my company - a Canadian company a competitive and attractive global hub.. Heck if everyone with good prospects and who excels in life professionally leaves our country think of what will happen to the homeland.. We'd be screwed so I guess its good that there are people like me... right!!??
So I'm not judging you Dixie Chick nor am I judging anyone else in here... If you are happy in the U.S and your husband is American and you have kids now well of course you ain't coming back and all the power to you - for me though i'm firmly making a strong choice to strengthen the homeland right here - at home and for the sake of our nation, I would hope individuals like me make up the majority of Canadians or we will lose in the long run!
Ah but they do....dating as far back at the early 80's I know Americans who moved to Canada....because they wanted to have babies and it was much cheaper in Canada.....
And if families believed that staying home with family is the way to make your country stronger and yourself -- none of us would be in the USA or Canada.
You don't have to have your family close by to be close to them to connect to them. Both USA and Canada were built on immigration and continue to thrive because of immigration.
You all are way too wordy -- and missed the point --- economics of scale and weather point blank are the reasons Canadians move to USA.
You can debate quality of life, blah, blah, blah.............doesn't matter.
Heh. I think you're right, in the long run that's probably all it boils down to.
It also explains why more Americans don't come to Canada.
Which leads me to feel that if people can't hack Canada's economics and weather then those folks are better off to head out to where the grass is greener and life is softer for them. Everyone benefits this way and Canada is better off anyway without folks who can't cut the hard mustard and would just be a PITA if they stuck around being miserable and complaining. It won't take long for someone from somewhere else to happily take their place. Certainly Canada is not having any problems with fulfilling its annual immigration targets with other people from around the world. The way it is now it's better all around.
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