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"It isn't that you do not notice the diversity, people are not blind, but stating its a selling point of a city when visiting is kind of weird to me."
What part of that exactly led you to the conclusion that I believe people should and do not notice the diversity of Toronto? I clearly stated that they notice it because people are not blind.
The part that comes across strange and sheltered to me is when they are impressed by it. We are typically impressed with things that surprise us, shock us and force us to step outside of our comfort zone. If you grow up in a large cosmopolitan city and travel the world, then I have a hard time understanding how seeing different types of people and hearing different languages is impressive.
Enjoy the video's Ed.. I'm sure a lot of people would be Impressed by things like this (minus you and some other C-D posters) and they just underscore what I've been saying... I for one like to celebrate things like this in one place.. Good Things..
When I was in London It actually coincided with Brazil Day in Trafalgar square and the number of people and turnout gave me a similar feeling as the vids above.. I like these big ethnic celebrations in large numbers in one place - it inspires me and is a beacon for something better in this world. NYC i'm sure would be the same...... Has zero to do with being sheltered or uncultured - no clue where you are coming from making such associations.
Fusion, these festivals are wonderful. There is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying these things. It is the reason why many of us seek out diverse, cosmopolitan cities to reside in. The part that I do not understand is how this is unique to a select few cities?
Pick a random city that is considered diverse. Then Google "XYZ Nationality Festival/Events" and see how many hits you get. Some are larger than others, some cities have obscure groups that only reside there, so there is no equivalent elsewhere. At the end of the day though most cities have festivals that span the globe.
I was away on a World Cup trip with my buddies while the Brazil festival was going on in London, but I do have a soft spot for Brazilian culture and try to seek out the community here. I attended the Brazilian Film Festival earlier on in the year and enjoyed every moment of it and was grateful to have access to this, similar to how you value having access to events in Toronto. I have been to much larger Brazilian events (I moved from the city with the largest Brazilian population outside of Brazil) but that did not in any way detract from my enjoyment of the festival in London. I was happy that I had access to something similar despite the much smaller population.
That is the beauty of the world today, people are moving everywhere and celebrating their culture wherever they put down roots. So I think you will find less and less people impressed with such events, since they most likely have a similar version in their own backyard. I am happy you take advantage of the ones in your own city.
Fusion, these festivals are wonderful. There is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying these things. It is the reason why many of us seek out diverse, cosmopolitan cities to reside in. The part that I do not understand is how this is unique to a select few cities?
Pick a random city that is considered diverse. Then Google "XYZ Nationality Festival/Events" and see how many hits you get. Some are larger than others, some cities have obscure groups that only reside there, so there is no equivalent elsewhere. At the end of the day though most cities have festivals that span the globe.
I was away on a World Cup trip with my buddies while the Brazil festival was going on in London, but I do have a soft spot for Brazilian culture and try to seek out the community here. I attended the Brazilian Film Festival earlier on in the year and enjoyed every moment of it and was grateful to have access to this, similar to how you value having access to events in Toronto. I have been to much larger Brazilian events (I moved from the city with the largest Brazilian population outside of Brazil) but that did not in any way detract from my enjoyment of the festival in London. I was happy that I had access to something similar despite the much smaller population.
That is the beauty of the world today, people are moving everywhere and celebrating their culture wherever they put down roots. So I think you will find less and less people impressed with such events, since they most likely have a similar version in their own backyard. I am happy you take advantage of the ones in your own city.
All I said was that Toronto like NYC, London is at the upper tier of diversity in the world and I think that it makes it more than just somewhat unique. They don't really share the stage with others on an equal level in terms of the large cities in the world... I honestly think most people would agree that as far as cities with the most diversity across the spectrum these 3 would be the Big 3 with another few honourable mentions.. I'm not saying you couldn't find a smaller Caribana type festival, or a Spanish World Cup celebration, Or a Kalsa celebration (did you actually look at the Kalsa celebration in Toronto - ITS MASSIVE lol fast forward to 3 or 4 minutes into it) in other cities like S.F, L.A, Boston, Vancouver etc - but outside either native Countries themselves or a select few cities like I've mentioned - it would be hard to find such breadth and depth in one place as you would the big 3.. To deny such is just silly if you ask me just to make a point that there are other diverse cities and where other places are going. Its also silly to deny that this isn't something many would note and potentially enjoy and be impressed with about the place.
Now true, there are other cities becoming more and more diverse but put into perpective - Toronto has had the largest per capita immigration rate in the world of any large city for decades now - kinda hard to deny that it isn't up there in diversity and most people comment on this and it doesn't make them sheltered or uncultured if they are impressed by it.. This is the only point i'm trying to make here - I'm not denying the evolving diversity of other cities or that there aren't other diverse cities... Heck, if I lived in NYC or London or had the experience you have had living in NYC and London, I wouldn't be all that impressed with T.O's diversity either but if I grew up in any number of most places in the world I probably would be if I were to visit either NYC, London or T.O to the point that I would notice it on a level that would be higher than most others. Put this way, when I was in London I noticed this instantly.. just a random walk to Trafalgar after a few hours at the British Museum and BAM a big ethnic celebration - I thought yup you'd see things like this in Toronto as well - Philly, Boston or S.F didn't quite come to mind....I wonder why..
All I said was that Toronto like NYC, London is at the upper tier of diversity in the world and I think that it makes it more than just somewhat unique. They don't really share the stage with others on an equal level in terms of the large cities in the world
Yes, I agree these are three very diverse cities and the most diverse in my mind as well.
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I'm not saying you couldn't find a smaller Caribana type festival, or a Spanish World Cup celebration, Or a Kalsa celebration (did you actually look at the Kalsa celebration in Toronto - ITS MASSIVE lol fast forward to 3 or 4 minutes into it) in other cities like S.F, L.A, Boston, Vancouver etc - but outside either native Countries themselves or a select few cities like I've mentioned
I have to admit, the Kalsa festival did seem pretty cool. I think that would be a good example of a festival you most likely could not find most places. The others? Bandwagon Spain fans who probably dont watch football outside of every 4 years? LOL. Sorry as a footy fan I always find these folks "cute".
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Put this way, when I was in London I noticed this instantly.. just a random walk to Trafalgar after a few hours at the British Museum and BAM a big ethnic celebration - I thought yup you'd see things like this in Toronto as well - Philly, Boston or S.F didn't quite come to mind....I wonder why..
Hmm...have you ever thought that the reason other cities did not come to your mind is because Toronto is your major point of reference? It is your home, the place you were born and raised, of course it is the default city when you are making a comparison.
Personally when I travel to a city one of the first things I do is look up the local arts and culture listings. Every single time, it never fails, there is a festival going on. If it is in the US or Canada, the majority of the time that festival will be linked to a particular ethnicity. So in my mind I never think "This would happen in Toronto, NYC or London" I typically think "This is probably happening at some point of the year, in any city that has a XYZ community living there"
I have enough experience to know that this basically happens everywhere and I have lived in all of your mentioned "Diversity Big 3" and never default to them when I am thinking of diversity and the celebration of that diversity.
Anyways, this really is a silly conversation to be having. I guess it just still catches me off guard in this day and age that people are still impressed by seeing others different than themselves.
Oh sorry forgot to add Ottawa and Gatineau as a place on equal footing with Toronto as far as ethnic and racial diversity is concerned.. My apologies
I knew you would respond like this. I think that in terms of being shocked or impressed, it's kind of a question of diminishing returns. The diversity of NYC did not impress or shock my kids either.
OMG, there's a black person! And another! And another! And there's five Asian people walking in a group! I can't believe it! And I just overheard some speaking Spanish! Holy cow!
I will agree that when you delve into stuff that's where Toronto's diversity really does pay off compared to a smaller city or metro like mine.
Others would dispute this. The border is a problem in my estimation and it's something that business leaders and even some government leaders have commented on in recent years. Delays are common. Time is lost. Compliance costs can be high. Resources are nowhere near used to their full efficiency. The border is a productivity sink and it costs money. Some prominent figures have been speaking out in favour of border reform for quite some time now. What if the border wasn't there at all?
The call to sort out this mess has been growing louder, and I hope we can fix it sooner rather than later. As always, it's the Mexican question that poses the single greatest challenge to a true North American border-free zone. Given Mexico's serious problems with a comparative lack economic opportunity at home and with crime, the countries to its north are understandably reluctant to throw the doors open to its people right now. There's no reason that Canada and the United States couldn't try to work towards an open border, though. Again, it seems to be a complete no-brainer to me. The fixes need not be extraordinary. All it would take is commitment on both sides to the North American project.
Others would dispute this. The border is a problem in my estimation and it's something that business leaders and even some government leaders have commented on in recent years. Delays are common. Time is lost. Compliance costs can be high. Resources are nowhere near used to their full efficiency. The border is a productivity sink and it costs money. Some prominent figures have been speaking out in favour of border reform for quite some time now. What if the border wasn't there at all?
It is hard to disagree with all this. But I think that your idea of an open border is far removed from reality. There is no doubt that the border (anywhere) is a problem for things like trade and tourism. But I think that there is no motivation on any side to dissolve the border and allow free flow of citizens.
From the top of my head I can think of major problems that would result in Canada from an open border. We all know that Canada has highly regulated and constricted banking and telecom sectors. What would happen to those in a free market? It would take the American telecom companies two days to bankrupt Rogers and Telus. I just feel that Canada and Mexico are not ready for an open border. And the US does not care for an open border.
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The call to sort out this mess has been growing louder, and I hope we can fix it sooner rather than later. As always, it's the Mexican question that poses the single greatest challenge to a true North American border-free zone. Given Mexico's serious problems with a comparative lack economic opportunity at home and with crime, the countries to its north are understandably reluctant to throw the doors open to its people right now. There's no reason that Canada and the United States couldn't try to work towards an open border, though. Again, it seems to be a complete no-brainer to me. The fixes need not be extraordinary. All it would take is commitment on both sides to the North American project.
Growing louder? Who is making noise about this?
Heck, the Americans cant even pass a simple immigration law for the folks already living in their country. And here you are talking about opening the border.
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And your point is?
My point is that no one cares about this issue. It is simply not important at this point in time.
I would say most people who visit Toronto still notice the diversity. It is well above average and up there with NY, London, SF and LA. The fact that so many cultures live in a relatively peaceful manner displays strong tolerance and civility that is not always the case around the world.
If someone is from a less diverse place, it will be noticeable to them. But yes, most major North American metros are becoming quite diverse and "diversity" by itself is not as much as a distinguishing factor compared to 10-20 years ago. I'm personally quite used to diverse surroundings but a higher % of foreign born doesn't necessarily make a city any better or worse - it really could go either way. So what if a city is 20% or 30% or 50% foreign born. I think it's more the type of people that live there and local culture that makes a city more interesting as opposed to what % was born somewhere else. Of course you need a certain level to be called diverse but if Toronto becomes 67% non-white in 10 years, does that necessarily make it better or more interesting?
Good post. In my opinion the whole diversity card has been way overplayed. I was never really shocked or impressed by diversity especially not in Toronto. I don't see why some use it as an advertisement. Toronto just seems like a regular big North American city. That it would have different immigrant groups goes without saying.
All I said was that Toronto like NYC, London is at the upper tier of diversity in the world and I think that it makes it more than just somewhat unique. They don't really share the stage with others on an equal level in terms of the large cities in the world... I honestly think most people would agree that as far as cities with the most diversity across the spectrum these 3 would be the Big 3 with another few honourable mentions.. I'm not saying you couldn't find a smaller Caribana type festival, or a Spanish World Cup celebration, Or a Kalsa celebration (did you actually look at the Kalsa celebration in Toronto - ITS MASSIVE lol fast forward to 3 or 4 minutes into it) in other cities like S.F, L.A, Boston, Vancouver etc - but outside either native Countries themselves or a select few cities like I've mentioned - it would be hard to find such breadth and depth in one place as you would the big 3.. To deny such is just silly if you ask me just to make a point that there are other diverse cities and where other places are going. Its also silly to deny that this isn't something many would note and potentially enjoy and be impressed with about the place.
Now true, there are other cities becoming more and more diverse but put into perpective - Toronto has had the largest per capita immigration rate in the world of any large city for decades now - kinda hard to deny that it isn't up there in diversity and most people comment on this and it doesn't make them sheltered or uncultured if they are impressed by it.. This is the only point i'm trying to make here - I'm not denying the evolving diversity of other cities or that there aren't other diverse cities... Heck, if I lived in NYC or London or had the experience you have had living in NYC and London, I wouldn't be all that impressed with T.O's diversity either but if I grew up in any number of most places in the world I probably would be if I were to visit either NYC, London or T.O to the point that I would notice it on a level that would be higher than most others. Put this way, when I was in London I noticed this instantly.. just a random walk to Trafalgar after a few hours at the British Museum and BAM a big ethnic celebration - I thought yup you'd see things like this in Toronto as well - Philly, Boston or S.F didn't quite come to mind....I wonder why..
Ok Fusion we get it, Toronto is diverse. Whoopdeedoo. It really isn't as big of a deal as you are always making it out to be. I highly doubt that people come to Toronto and are amazed at it's diversity. It is just a normal large sized North American city and the premier city in Canada. Of course it is going to be diverse. It would be much more shocking if Toronto was still an all-white city with only English and Scottish surnames.
Anyways, this really is a silly conversation to be having. I guess it just still catches me off guard in this day and age that people are still impressed by seeing others different than themselves.
Well Edward - I think its established that most people in the world aren't quite yet on your level of sophistication, culture or travel. It is what it is.. I stick by my comments re Toronto.. I'd be very surprised if I found the number and size - depth/breadth as you'd find in Toronto in most other places - has nothing to do with it being my own ONLY point of reference. You're not talking to someone who doesn't have friends and hasn't visited many a U.S city btw. I think you know it as well! I'll dig up your posts on T.O's hyper diversity just for emphasis lol.. you need reminded about what you said apparently. Does it make T.O better than Boston - no it just is what it is and is more descriptive than anything - but its certainly not a bad thing being hyper diverse..
Last edited by fusion2; 11-11-2014 at 10:38 AM..
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