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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 146 66.06%
No 75 33.94%
Voters: 221. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-08-2014, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,727 posts, read 33,923,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post

As I said, i'm willing to do more to bridge gaps - I'd love to see mandatory French classes in all schools and that it is a requirement for all Canadians going through the public school system to be fluent in both English and French in order to get a H.S diploma... I don't think this is an extraordinary requirement as an example.
Yeah, that would be a good idea. I don't think either language group (with some exceptions) has ever truly put its heart into second language learning within their school system. In the francophone milieu, learning English *too well* has often been viewed as something dangerous/threatening and "caving in". On the anglophone side, learning French has sometimes been viewed as useless or even worse, stooping down to a lower level.

I do also think that student exchange programs should be greatly enhanced. I know they exist but maybe they could be longer and have kids spend an entire semester in a school in the other language. This type of thing may already exist (I am thinking of organizations like SEVEC) but they are far from systematic and I an not sure what the duration is.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,727 posts, read 33,923,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I think a forum like this is going to attract those who are more or less attracted to one side or the other so you are probably right, it may not glean a good representation of how most Canadians feel.. You're going to get a good number who'll just bash Quebec and the movement as illegitamate and without valid concerns and being a bunch of cry babies.. On the flip side you'll get those that just have zero interest in making meaningful connections and will lump everyone else the bag of coal of indifference.
I think that the idea that the rest of Canada has bent over backwards and done everything humanly possible (and even more) to make Quebec happy is a pretty firmly ingrained majority view. That's a huge obstacle to overcome in any type of discussion on this topic.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,665,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I'm not putting you in that category - but there are certainly elements in these forums who would absolutely revel in a fragmented Canada and who have no inclination whatsoever to see a better united one..
Other than larrcarver I don't see anyone reveling at the prospect of a fragmented Canada. I see people who are looking at Canada for what it is - a contract between the Quebecois (Canadien) and British North American colonial elites. If independence was on the table, the Quebecois would have taken it. But it wasn't. Why? Because the British said so. Instead they chose to become part of the new Dominion of Canada which they called "the least harmful option". So Canada isn't a "nation" in the sense of Germany or France - or Quebec. It is just a political entity. This is why the Canadian government has pushed so hard to create a Canadian identity.

Whether by promoting Canadian Content or bilingualism, the creation of a "nation" has been a top government priority. In contrast, people from Germany feel German no matter what. People from France feel French no matter what. Americans feel American regardless. The Quebecois feel like they are Quebecois no matter what the federal government and international boundaries tell them. The people of these political entities don't have to try to be French, German, American, or Quebecois. They just are. In Canada the Quebecois have to "try" to be Canadian. English Canadians have to "try" not to be American. It's no coincidence that traveling English Canadians are assumed to be Americans. It's no coincidence that some lament that the Quebecois don't try hard enough to understand the ROC. This bilingual nation of Canada does not exist. The independent state of Canada does. The nation of Quebec does exist, but the independent state of Quebec does not. This truth strikes at the very core of the fabricated pan-Canadian identity.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:33 PM
 
1,393 posts, read 2,328,384 times
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Funny, but I find all of his points on that list sum up quite nicely a certain Canadian unity/identity orthodoxy that is extremely common in Canada. Not everyone thinks like that of course, but these views are widely shared and pretty mainstream.
Agreed.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:34 PM
 
Location: france
784 posts, read 527,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Yeah, that would be a good idea. I don't think either language group (with some exceptions) has ever truly put its heart into second language learning within their school system. In the francophone milieu, learning English *too well* has often been viewed as something dangerous/threatening and "caving in".
I was thinking that all quebecois were fluent in English, in fact really a few of them can handle a conversation and French people who have an awfull reputation for language skill are better than quebecois.


What is the opinion of Canadians about Quebec independance?
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,727 posts, read 33,923,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
I was thinking that all quebecois were fluent in English, in fact really a few of them can handle a conversation and French people who have an awfull reputation for language skill are better than quebecois.
It's more nuanced than that. I would estimate that the English-language skills of the Québécois are generally better than that of the French.


A good third of francophone Québécois have excellent English skills I would say. Another third have the basics and about a third speak little to none.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:58 PM
 
22,769 posts, read 13,840,491 times
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Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Agreed... Both sides who take an extreme view are seeing monsters that most of us don't see.. They'll just profess that we are living in our own bubbles disconnected from other parts of Canada and their problems.. There is some truth to this but that is to be expected in a country as large as ours. I love the part where we are just some mythical manifestation of something great yet the sum of our parts suggest otherwise.. Anyway, i'm not seeing alot of 'bridge' building among those with more extreme views on either side.. A good example is when you stated that you recall people with stickers on cars making a statement that our Canada includes Quebec and it was just completely shot down as irrelavent.. Its like they are just set in their ways and that is it. How much are they wanting to extend their hand out to find some common ground as well- not too much I see.
Aaah nuts! You're peeing into the wind Fusion.

As far as my experience goes related to years of working for a company headquartered in Quebec but whose bulk of production came out of Ontario, we fostered a plan for exchange of housing after spending years of convincing the company and months on drafting an agreement detailing how those with comparable job experience and training within the company could trade home locations, providing a moderate amount of job training was all that was necessary. The company agreed to provide in-house language classes and there were enough bi-lingual people working for the company in all locations to "cushion" transitions.

We targeted those who showed interest from a variety of demographics who would be interested, single, married or with school aged children and worked to provide a fit to locations within Quebec City, Montreal, Ville LaSalle, Ajax and locales in Ontario from Guelph to Toronto. We spent untold unpaid hours going over worst case scenarios of a cost analyst from one location being replaced by a fork-truck driver from another. Some fun I can tell you but through it all the company was willing to provide some unheard-of accommodations.

We had any number of interested parties from ALL company locations within Ontario (and one Winnipegger) who saw the value of moving to someplace like Quebec City to fully embrace the 'Quebec Experience' and who also committed by signed letters of intent while the only applicants in total we received from all locations from Quebec were TWO families with school aged children; both interested in Guelph and it's available University.

All that work went into the crapper because the French Canadians wanted no part of experiencing life in the vile English stronghold of Canada.

Yeah, I'm bitter, as three of us petitioned tirelessly for a few years, to the point of making nuisances of ourselves, to even get the Company to agree and we saw it as a pattern agreement that could take flight across many corporations and industries with large employee base. We saw it as a sociology experiment that might forge ties-that-bind during a period of the late 70's and early 80's when those were desperately needed.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
17,213 posts, read 12,736,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I sure as hell hope you guys aren't putting me in the category of someone on the "extremes".

If anything, the "extreme" that is the counterweight to the hardline Quebec separatists is the crowd that thinks Canada is absolutely perfect the way it is and has done/can do no wrong.
No Acajack...I don't think of you that way at all.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,727 posts, read 33,923,700 times
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Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
No Acajack...I don't think of you that way at all.
I may be unsentimental, but I am not extreme!
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
17,213 posts, read 12,736,988 times
Reputation: 10680
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Agreed... Both sides who take an extreme view are seeing monsters that most of us don't see.. They'll just profess that we are living in our own bubbles disconnected from other parts of Canada and their problems.. There is some truth to this but that is to be expected in a country as large as ours. I love the part where we are just some mythical manifestation of something great yet the sum of our parts suggest otherwise.. Anyway, i'm not seeing alot of 'bridge' building among those with more extreme views on either side.. A good example is when you stated that you recall people with stickers on cars making a statement that our Canada includes Quebec and it was just completely shot down as irrelavent.. Its like they are just set in their ways and that is it. How much are they wanting to extend their hand out to find some common ground as well- not too much I see.
Maybe the part that Hobbs is missing is that unlike Hobbs we have lived with " the issue " :roll eyes:
all our lives.

Being born and raised here in Vancouver by a Quebecois mother and grandparents, and a Quebecois Grandfather on my fathers side and myriad of Quebecois relatives and friends over the years I've heard all the conversations about " the issue " over and over again. I've seen it ebb and flow over the years, I've heard it told from a 95 year old women's perspective of having grown up in Quebec from 1910 to 1950 and from a friend who was a university student in Montreal in the 1990's ( he was for separating ) to see him change his mind over the years.

I saw how the prospect of Quebec leaving in 1995 raise up a whole new set of questions that I hadn't thought of before. I also saw how separation could impact the economy with a very personal story.

It was 1995. I was buying a condo. I only could afford so much and my offer was below the offer. My real estate agent said it was too low so don't expect to get it.
The night of the referendum I was waiting for a phone call from the developers who were selling the building( it was a new building and not previously owned ). It looked like at one point Quebec had voted to leave...it was so close. The phone rang. They took my offer.
I don't believe it was a coincidence, since there was talk of interests rates rising etc if Quebec left.

So I guess I get my gander up when someone who attended university in Montreal, reads a few french language newspapers, listens to some politicized professors, talks to a few english speakers mainly from Ontario, seem to think they know what the ROC thinks.
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