Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement? (passport, segregation, difference between)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by torontocheeka

OK, so 4 million of the people who hated us enough to want to split up the country is not "so many"?

I would be curious to know what your definition is of "a lot."

The referendum question was on hatred of Anglo-Canadians?

[torontocheeka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The referendum question was on hatred of Anglo-Canadians?

Yep!

Segregation is fundamentally about hatred. There is no other motive for wanting separation but that fundamentally, these people hate us and want to live apart from us.

Saying that self-segregation is not about hatred is like saying that Jim Crow wasn't about racism, all white people wanted was their own schools and water fountains. Please. Nobody's buying your disengenuous bulls***!

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Plains of Abraham? US Civil War? Louis Riel? Not exactly a recipe for a strong, harmonious, united Canada.

Originally Posted by PBeauchamp

Always the US Civil War comparisons.

Sometimes military victories have consequences. When a war is lost you don't get a mulligan.

Originally Posted by PBeauchamp

What about a peaceful separation is hard to understand? Or is it that you don't want to understand that secession is legal in Canada as long as we do it in a peaceful and democratic manner?

The Clarity Act does not clarify how much more than 50%+1 is needed. Everyone now living in Quebec has the rights of Canadians. That was the bargain when they were born or moved to Quebec. To subject 50% - 1 to a completely different set of rights (or very few rights at all) is a serious matter. I don't think it's fair for anyone to be subject to the tyranny of the majority.

Except some French in history have. Ask Robbespierre or the Directorate during the early 1790's. Rule by a guillotine-empowered majority may not be optimal.

Originally Posted by PBeauchamp

So you advocate the return of Israel to Moslem Ottoman rule?

The difference is that Israel is a viable country. There is no set of facts under which Quebec as an independent nation can maintain anything close to current living standards without a lot of outside help.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Anglo Lebensraum over all of North America north of the Rio Grande is still a powerful symbol for a lot of people.

Why the Nazi analogy? The economic success of North America north of the Rio Grande is based upon appropriate work ethic and political organization. Why replace it with jibber-jabber?

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by PBeauchamp

I'm not even a separatist, but I'm considering changing my stance. Separatists don't hate Canada, they just don't identify with it. Remember that we are part of Canada due to military conquest. Is it really so tough to understand that we have our own nation?

Was Lower Canada dragged to the Charlottetown Conference that preceded independence?

For that matter did the Pennsylvania Dutch (more accurately Deutsch since they are German) demand their own country? Is the former small Icelandic Republic located in part of Manitoba centered around Gimli conquered territory?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by torontocheeka

Yep!

Segregation is fundamentally about hatred. There is no other motive for wanting separation but that fundamentally, these people hate us and want to live apart from us.

Saying that self-segregation is not about hatred is like saying that Jim Crow wasn't about racism, all white people wanted was their own schools and water fountains. Please. Nobody's buying your disengenuous bulls***!

So the fact that Canada is a separate country from the U.S. and that Canadians want to keep it that way is hatred, self-segration and racism?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

Why the Nazi analogy? The economic success of North America north of the Rio Grande is based upon appropriate work ethic and political organization. Why replace it with jibber-jabber?

Lebensraum as a concept goes back a lot further than Nazi Germany. Back to the 1800s. It was not a Nazi analogy that I was making BTW.

Anyway, Anglo (North) Americans have always had their own version of Lebensraum. It's called Manifest Destiny. It hasn't all been sunshine and rainbows either.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

Why replace it with jibber-jabber?

What exactly do you mean by jibber-jabber? Is this like a slag on Hispanics or something?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

The difference is that Israel is a viable country. There is no set of facts under which Quebec as an independent nation can maintain anything close to current living standards without a lot of outside help.

That is so friggin' hilarious! Israel would not even exist if not for the massive support of its friends in high places.

In the hypothetical absence of bankrolling and military support from the world's big dudes in both cases, I kind of like the chances of an independent Quebec a lot more than those of Israel.

BTW I am a supporter of Israel's right to exist. But geez, let's be serious!

[torontocheeka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So the fact that Canada is a separate country from the U.S. and that Canadians want to keep it that way is hatred, self-segration and racism?

It is definitely self-segregation, and it's self-segregation with tons of historical precedent since we've been a sovereign nation since at least 1867, and in practise since 1812, and in our own self-interest. I do not see how Quebecois would stand to benefit from secession, and there certainly is no historical precedent for it, but if they hate us enough to want to do that, I support you

[torontocheeka]

Realistically, people should have the right to self-determination. I think let there be another referendum. There is no reason a people who hate us should have to be "oppressed" by our federal government transfers.

Acajack, if you are so certain that the Quebecois do not hate us and do not want to separate, surely the results would work out in favour of continued unification.