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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 147 65.04%
No 79 34.96%
Voters: 226. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-09-2014, 07:28 PM
 
22,925 posts, read 14,227,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Frankly Brusan, I have no interest in exchanging stories about personal experiences.

Anglophones in Montreal are perhaps the best treated minority in the world. They have ready access to schools, hospitals, and all government services in their language. They can walk into a francophone owned store and get service in English. They also control a disproportionate amount of wealth and power. Meanwhile a francophone in Ottawa, let alone Toronto or Vancouver, cannot by any strech of the imagination expect to be met with this level of comfort. He cannot walk into the hospital in Saskatoon or Halifax and readily be helped in French. He cannot walk into a store and communicate with the salesperson in hislanguage. As a result, the francophone in most of Canada has no choice but to assimilate. Otherwise he remains a foreigner in his own country. There lies the problem; a Quebecois feels like he is in his own country in Quebec and not in other areas of Canada. Ontario and British Columbia might as well be part of the US from his perspective

I sympathize with your mistreatment at the hands of the Quebecois. Yet rationally speaking, there will be at least 3 angry anglophones for every angry Quebecois simply due to the much larger Anglo population. If these two populations can not find a way to work out a compromise then eventually Canada will fall apart. Sooner or later the question arises: Does a compromise that adequately satisfies both parties even exist? Right now Canada is hovering between 'yes' and 'no' but at some point it has to choose which path to take.
Well dang if I don't agree with every single thing you've said this time....Holy Moly!

I do not dislike French Canadians; I dislike those ones who dislike me for no better reason than my English speaking Canadian origins. I have also detected a softening of that being the default stance for many in the last decade, proof being Ms Marois's ouster. A positive change is happening as we speak but......
I would also say separation is probably a given unless something totally remarkable happens to stimulate adoption of French throughout the ROC. How does one go about convincing a majority population to agree to undergo such a metamorphism without it being seen as necessary or worse still, seen as another act of non-essential appeasement in their lives?

It's akin to convincing people to not shop at Walmart but actually spend more money and perhaps undergo some inconvenience to protect someone else's job on the other side of the country.

A major sea change in thinking about this must occur and I just don't see that happening with both sides entrenched in the historical narrative.
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Old 12-09-2014, 07:38 PM
 
342 posts, read 480,348 times
Reputation: 531
I am learning alot from this thread. I would like Quebec to stay but I understand if they want to leave and we can still be best friends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Those certainly are valid questions, and they are the same questions that Canada faced as she tried to assert independence from Britain. More recently we can look at the peaceful "divorce" of the Czech Republic and Slovakia which also faced the same questions. In both the case of Canada and Slovakia things went splendidly. In fact, there hasn't been a modern day "divorce" between first world nations that went poorly or resulted in an economic catastrophe.

Financial doomsday scenarios aside, the purpose of Quebec is not about economics. It is about culture. The economics perspective is relevant but misses the point of what the entire movement is all about. It is about a political arrangement that works better on paper than in reality. It is about a regular guy from Laval feeling like a foreigner in his own country. It is about having a totally different outlook on life, culture, religion, language, money, and politics that most of the Anglo majority doesn't even try to understand. Even if the economic prospects for an independent Quebec were immediate bankruptcy, a strong seperatist movement would still persist.
+ 1

I really respect your effort to learn French and understand Quebecer culture. I think it is good to see someone who is willing to look at this from a different angle. I can tell you know alot about Quebec. Do you think Quebec is sustainable as a country? I have heard mixed outcomes.
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Old 12-09-2014, 07:48 PM
 
342 posts, read 480,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Sure. But in the absence of effective and deliberate self-isolation, this only serves to delay a greater integration into wider society. Even most francophones outside Quebec face community erosion (sometimes significant) in spite of the fact that their language is official and they have kindergarten to post-secondary education options in French, generalized product labelling in their language, various media in their language and a good measure of public services (depending on where they live) in their language.
Acajack thanks for your help I think your posts are very informative. Do you mean that the governments policies arent doing anything? If francophones outside of Quebec are being assimilated right now maybe something more should be done. What about inside of Quebec did French stop declining? Thanks for your help I think your posts are very informative. I don't know any francophones personally so this is my only way to see your point of view. I have been skeptical of the Quebec/Canada relationship but I never tried to see it from the francophone view until recently.
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Old 12-09-2014, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,704 posts, read 14,002,382 times
Reputation: 4563
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Fusion, you asked my opinion, and I gave it in a short and concise reply. I am not an economist. If you disagree, I respect your opinion 100%. Let's continue to have an intelligent discussion.
Again - my questions weren't just economic in nature (though the validity of the economic condition of Quebec years down the road after secession is an absolute valid argument as it involves the prosperity of a new nation and its citizens vs what they have now).. So again I ask you about the other cultural issues ie..those who didn't want to vote for secession what of them.. What of the First Nations and what would Quebec's borders look like when the question of partition in a legal framework needs to be addressed vis a vie International law.. These are all important items that need to by analyzed properly.. Why? A vote for secession would start us down that inevitable rickecty path that you simply concluded would be a nice clean break a la Czech/Slovakia - wouldn't we want to have a good idea of what that path will look like before we were to vote intelligently about the matter..

Again uncomfortable questions but in no way would I discount them as lacking in intelligence. They are just not what you want to discuss.. You'd rather throw around hypothetical points about Quebec's maple syrup production and what its GDP would be like even though you are using GDP numbers for Quebec in a united Canada that would not apply.. You assume that the nation would take on its exact borders when that is certainly not a certainty by any means..

You're not an economist or an International lawyer and you don't speak for all Quebecers either. I don't either - I get that so neither of us are experts here. Experts need to be engaged so we all have an idea of what this would look like.. The question of secession is an easy one - what ensues afterwards would not be!
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Old 12-09-2014, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,703,401 times
Reputation: 2206
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Well dang if I don't agree with every single thing you've said this time....Holy Moly!

I do not dislike French Canadians; I dislike those ones who dislike me for no better reason than my English speaking Canadian origins. I have also detected a softening of that being the default stance for many in the last decade, proof being Ms Marois's ouster. A positive change is happening as we speak but......
I would also say separation is probably a given unless something totally remarkable happens to stimulate adoption of French throughout the ROC. How does one go about convincing a majority population to agree to undergo such a metamorphism without it being seen as necessary or worse still, seen as another act of non-essential appeasement in their lives?

It's akin to convincing people to not shop at Walmart but actually spend more money and perhaps undergo some inconvenience to protect someone else's job on the other side of the country.

A major sea change in thinking about this must occur and I just don't see that happening with both sides entrenched in the historical narrative.
Good post. Now I see where you are coming from. The last line summed it up quite well. You sound like an English Canadian who is tired of the issue and wants Quebec to seperate. It sounds like you feel that the current situation isn't working, and the most viable solution is for them to their own way. Brusan, this an accurate interpretation?
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:08 PM
 
342 posts, read 480,348 times
Reputation: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Again - my questions weren't just economic in nature (though the validity of the economic condition of Quebec years down the road after secession is an absolute valid argument as it involves the prosperity of a new nation and its citizens vs what they have now).. So again I ask you about the other cultural issues ie..those who didn't want to vote for secession what of them.. What of the First Nations and what would Quebec's borders look like when the question of partition in a legal framework needs to be addressed vis a vie International law.. These are all important items that need to by analyzed properly.. Why? A vote for secession would start us down that inevitable rickecty path that you simply concluded would be a nice clean break a la Czech/Slovakia - wouldn't we want to have a good idea of what that path will look like before we were to vote intelligently about the matter..

Again uncomfortable questions but in no way would I discount them as lacking in intelligence. They are just not what you want to discuss.. You'd rather throw around hypothetical points about Quebec's maple syrup production and what its GDP would be like even though you are using GDP numbers for Quebec in a united Canada that would not apply.. You assume that the nation would take on its exact borders when that is certainly not a certainty by any means..

You're not an economist or an International lawyer and you don't speak for all Quebecers either. I don't either - I get that so neither of us are experts here. Experts need to be engaged so we all have an idea of what this would look like.. The question of secession is an easy one - what ensues afterwards would not be!
^ Is this really necessary? I don't see where Hobbs said anything that warrants such a bitter post!
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,703,401 times
Reputation: 2206
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Again - my questions weren't just economic in nature (though the validity of the economic condition of Quebec years down the road after secession is an absolute valid argument as it involves the prosperity of a new nation and its citizens vs what they have now).. So again I ask you about the other cultural issues ie..those who didn't want to vote for secession what of them.. What of the First Nations and what would Quebec's borders look like when the question of partition in a legal framework needs to be addressed vis a vie International law.. These are all important items that need to by analyzed properly.. Why? A vote for secession would start us down that inevitable rickecty path that you simply concluded would be a nice clean break a la Czech/Slovakia - wouldn't we want to have a good idea of what that path will look like before we were to vote intelligently about the matter..

Again uncomfortable questions but in no way would I discount them as lacking in intelligence. They are just not what you want to discuss.. You'd rather throw around hypothetical points about Quebec's maple syrup production and what its GDP would be like even though you are using GDP numbers for Quebec in a united Canada that would not apply.. You assume that the nation would take on its exact borders when that is certainly not a certainty by any means..

You're not an economist or an International lawyer and you don't speak for all Quebecers either. I don't either - I get that so neither of us are experts here. Experts need to be engaged so we all have an idea of what this would look like.. The question of secession is an easy one - what ensues afterwards would not be!
It appears that my hypothetical overview of a potential independent Quebec has made you very angry. You have returned to egging me on in an aggressive and hostile manner like you did on the first few pages of this thread. There is little knowledge to be gained in such an emotional mud-slinging match.
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,704 posts, read 14,002,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeMike91 View Post
^ Is this really necessary? I don't see where Hobbs said anything that warrants such a bitter post!
I don't get why one would think its not necessary in any question of a debate about Quebec secession.. On the one hand you say you'd rather Quebec stay in Canada, on the other you're slapping high fives to a person who makes no bones (implicitly anyway) about their preference for Quebec to separate.. I find that odd..

Anyway, the majority of Quebecers have not and don't want to seperate.. Hobbes has no problem getting into a hypothetical discussion about something the majority of Quebecers don't want - so I don't see why its controversial for me to get into a hypothetical discussion either. Do the majority of Quebecers not count in your estimation? Aside from that, I think it is 100 percent valid to ask the questions I did.. If you actually go back to my original post - it wasn't even engaging Hobbes directly - I was positing it to the community at large - he responded and engaged and the rest ensued.. What's with the sensitivity here..

Do you not think the Question of what a post secession Quebec would look like from a cultural, geographic and economic standpoint is valid.. I know if I were voting on the matter I'd want to be as informed as possible - wouldn't you?

As a matter of fact - you didn't give me any high fives or +1's before yet I was the one saying hey - within a united Canada what can we all do to build bridges instead of burn them down.. Apparently one who wants to be open about bring Canadians together isn't noteworthy to you.

Hobbes, Acajack and other bring up alot of great points actually about the conditions of many of our fellow countrymen - but in the case of hobbes the endgame is clear (If not explicitly, implicitly) and I don't think its necessarily in the best interest of Quebecers and the majority of Quebecers feel the same.. Acajack has never gone on record from what I know wanting the same endgame as Hobbes. Now, i've also stated that the status quo in our country is not going to fundamentaly change things and have stated very clearly my support for mandatory French language fluency in all Public H.S's in Canada in order for one to graduate from shore to shore to shore...

Last edited by fusion2; 12-09-2014 at 08:57 PM..
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,704 posts, read 14,002,382 times
Reputation: 4563
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
It appears that my hypothetical overview of a potential independent Quebec has made you very angry. You have returned to egging me on in an aggressive and hostile manner like you did on the first few pages of this thread. There is little knowledge to be gained in such an emotional mud-slinging match.
I don't get why you have come to such a conclusion.. The questions asked are valid and should be explored.. I don't think you answered them - If you can't that is fine there is no need for you to.. The validity of the questions remain and they are important to Quebecers and the R.O.C as well as this involves more than just Quebec.. I'm not being emotive at all actually - they are uncomfortable questions yes - but again valid nonetheless and I think a thorough examination of them from an expert p.o.v is extraordinarily an important part of any secessionist debate.

As for egging you on - not at all... You don't need to answer them nor are you expected to.. I didn't ask anyone specifically in the first place - it was a general post. You were the one who took it on so I engaged you... I'm fine for you to secede from my questions and will be happy to discuss with others
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,704 posts, read 14,002,382 times
Reputation: 4563
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Aaah nuts! You're peeing into the wind Fusion.

As far as my experience goes related to years of working for a company headquartered in Quebec but whose bulk of production came out of Ontario, we fostered a plan for exchange of housing after spending years of convincing the company and months on drafting an agreement detailing how those with comparable job experience and training within the company could trade home locations, providing a moderate amount of job training was all that was necessary. The company agreed to provide in-house language classes and there were enough bi-lingual people working for the company in all locations to "cushion" transitions.

We targeted those who showed interest from a variety of demographics who would be interested, single, married or with school aged children and worked to provide a fit to locations within Quebec City, Montreal, Ville LaSalle, Ajax and locales in Ontario from Guelph to Toronto. We spent untold unpaid hours going over worst case scenarios of a cost analyst from one location being replaced by a fork-truck driver from another. Some fun I can tell you but through it all the company was willing to provide some unheard-of accommodations.

We had any number of interested parties from ALL company locations within Ontario (and one Winnipegger) who saw the value of moving to someplace like Quebec City to fully embrace the 'Quebec Experience' and who also committed by signed letters of intent while the only applicants in total we received from all locations from Quebec were TWO families with school aged children; both interested in Guelph and it's available University.

All that work went into the crapper because the French Canadians wanted no part of experiencing life in the vile English stronghold of Canada.

Yeah, I'm bitter, as three of us petitioned tirelessly for a few years, to the point of making nuisances of ourselves, to even get the Company to agree and we saw it as a pattern agreement that could take flight across many corporations and industries with large employee base. We saw it as a sociology experiment that might forge ties-that-bind during a period of the late 70's and early 80's when those were desperately needed.
Missed this post Brusan! Always appreciate your perspective and experiences...
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