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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 147 65.04%
No 79 34.96%
Voters: 226. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-09-2014, 08:49 PM
 
Location: europe
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I am now convinced that Quebec is better off as a independent state. I am surprised it hasn't become one already.
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,656 posts, read 13,967,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtmann View Post
I am now convinced that Quebec is better off as a independent state. I am surprised it hasn't become one already.
Its fine to say you are convinced, but it would make for a much stronger argument for you to list the pro's and con's and also the impact of such a move.. For some Quebecers it would no doubt be better but the essential question of is it better for all - well I think that is part of the reason it has not occured.

Aside from that, All Canadians would do well to put on the empathy shoes!
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,870 posts, read 34,612,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Among all the talk of independence, what would an independent Québec look like? If Québec became independent it would have....

The 29th highest GDP in the world, about equal to South Africa.

The 27th highest GDP per capita, just behind Japan and the UK, just ahead of New Zealand and Finland.

The 99th largest population, with more people than of all the Scandinavian countries and Ireland.

The 20th largest country in the world, smaller than Mexico, and larger than Peru.

The second largest French speaking city in the world, Montréal.

The largest French speaking country in the world.

The northernmost capital city in the western hemisphere.

Over 2% of all the world's forests, and 3% of the world's fresh water reserves.

Over 85% of the world's maple syrup production.

]
I just knew you were going to get in big trouble on here buddy!
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,870 posts, read 34,612,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
And once again I have no fear of Francophones so ergo; also no actual exaggeration.

What is it about me testifying to the manifested displayed dislike of English Canada by some Quebecers being in any way less important or less obvious than the supposed dislike the ROC has for Quebec? Why is describing provable known history of bad behaviour unjustified?

Where were you during the Quebec Crisis? Did you travel to Expo to endure rude treatment by many? Have you been told to your face to not speak English while the street is full of Quebecers celebrating St. Jean Baptiste day? Have you been told you must saddle up and fly people from all over Canada to the province of Quebec when meetings of staff were scheduled for all Provinces but Quebecers would only attend those held in Quebec?

There is nothing warped about a perspective gained from over 50 years of events either witnessed or experienced personally. You don't like your "perspective" challenged, I get that. Tough noogies.

People with my longevity and history of forced involvement with die-hard separatists will not be posting on these boards in any numbers so you're not likely to be overburdened in any case.

Throw another strawman out there Hobbs as the "fear and prejudice" one has been flogged to death from only one side of that stupid fence you're building. You are no more interested in a logical debate than anyone who suggests there has been failures of reasoning emanating from only one side of this long simmering nonsense.
Well, I lived as a francophone in the English-speaking provinces of Canada for about a quarter-century. I could fill up pages on here with lots of anecdotal stories too. Some of them juicier than those you have provided. But I am not sure what it would add to this discussion.
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Good post. Now I see where you are coming from. The last line summed it up quite well. You sound like an English Canadian who is tired of the issue and wants Quebec to seperate. It sounds like you feel that the current situation isn't working, and the most viable solution is for them to their own way. Brusan, this an accurate interpretation?
Actually, I would be interested in a response to this as well! I didn't infer that Brusan would want Quebec to seperate but clarity is always a good thing I would say
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,870 posts, read 34,612,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Some speak of GDP but what would happen to those in Quebec who didn't vote for separation - I mean at no point has support been greater than 50 percent so in an independant Quebec - how many would actually stay in the new country and support it - how many would leave and what would happen to its GDP then..
The vast majority of federalists in Quebec would stay post-independence. In recent debates we've had people like Jean Chrétien, Paul Martin and Pierre Elliot Trudeau all said they would stay.

Almost the entire francophone population of Quebec would stay put. And that's 85% of the population. Some of the anglophone and allophone population might leave but certainly not all of them either.

I don't see population exodus as a big issue.
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,656 posts, read 13,967,988 times
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Well, I lived as a francophone in the English-speaking provinces of Canada for about a quarter-century. I could fill up pages on here with lots of anecdotal stories too. Some of them juicier than those you have provided. But I am not sure what it would add to this discussion.
My experiences have not been juicy and have actually been very amicable - I suppose they go a long way in shaping how we see things... Its not to render illegitimacy to the experiences of others, just clarifying that they do shape how each of us responds to this issue.
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,870 posts, read 34,612,168 times
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Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
Montreal is the birthplace of the separatist movement and is consistently more separatist in elections then either Quebec City or Gatineau. Moreover, UN jurisprudence on the subject does not support that notion so it's a bit of a federalist fantasy. Even if, say, the West Island could separate, it probably wouldn't do anything more then threaten as the people living there depend on the rest of the metro area economically, there is no political umbrella under which all of those municipalities could act together, none of them are majority native Anglophone despite the impression you might get, and at the end of the day people are very connected in a myriad of ways with the rest of the city and province. At the same time, the Cree have reconciled with the Quebec government so the situation with them would be pretty different from 1995. So all of this argument it moot. It may have been relevant in 1995 but if it happened this year? Nah, I don't believe it would go down that way in 2014.
Sensible post. Which I why I think efforts should be concentrated on making Quebec an enthusiastic partner within Canada, instead of trying to find some trickery to subvert the democratic will or sabotage or chop up an independent Quebec if ever it does happen.
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,656 posts, read 13,967,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The vast majority of federalists in Quebec would stay post-independence. In recent debates we've had people like Jean Chrétien, Paul Martin and Pierre Elliot Trudeau all said they would stay.

Almost the entire francophone population of Quebec would stay put. And that's 85% of the population. Some of the anglophone and allophone population might leave but certainly not all of them either.

I don't see population exodus as a big issue.
That is good information actually.. There would be some population loss but not necessarily anything that would fundamentally impact the long term prosperity of the country - There would be an impact in the short term even if its only a few percentage points.. I'm also thinking along the lines of future growth rates.. Do you think a seperate Quebec would continue a liberal immigration policy along the lines of the R.O.C.. It would be interesting to see what type of immigration policy the country would take on..
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:14 PM
 
22,925 posts, read 14,205,971 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Good post. Now I see where you are coming from. The last line summed it up quite well. You sound like an English Canadian who is tired of the issue and wants Quebec to seperate. It sounds like you feel that the current situation isn't working, and the most viable solution is for them to their own way. Brusan, this an accurate interpretation?
I most certainly do not want Quebec to separate..

I am most certainly tired of the issue and do indeed think the current situation, while currently improved, is one of temporary duration because there have been periods of relative harmony before only to culminate in a re-birth of animosity.

I stated my belief that separation is inevitable UNLESS something remarkable happens of an hitherto unparalleled degree to change the dynamic.

My hope is that someone with vision comes to the table and fosters a dialogue of co-operation acceptable to even the most intransigent of White Rose'rs and/or Separatistes et-al.

Sadly, that won't happen, if history is any judge, until another referendum is imminent and by which time rigid battle lines have already been drawn.
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