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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 147 65.04%
No 79 34.96%
Voters: 226. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-09-2014, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,931 posts, read 34,670,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
This is really what I like - common success stories that bind us together but at the same time respect the unique aspects of all our various parts. I don't know, I just think there is a way for us to all stay as a united country yet at the same time build on what makes each part successful and strong and I think this approach will ultimately bear the most fruit..

.
It's actually another valuable cord in Canada's arc (bad translation I know), one more angle that contributes to its attractiveness, allowing it to draw even more talented people.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Sensible post. Which I why I think efforts should be concentrated on making Quebec an enthusiastic partner within Canada, instead of trying to find some trickery to subvert the democratic will or sabotage or chop up an independent Quebec if ever it does happen.
The desire of those who want to remain part of Canada is just as legitimate as the desire of those that want an independent Quebec. If certain regions remain part of Canada and do so within a democratic framework, How is that trickery?
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,931 posts, read 34,670,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
The desire of those who want to remain part of Canada is just as legitimate as the desire of those that want an independent Quebec. If certain regions remain part of Canada and do so within a democratic framework, How is that trickery?
Perhaps trickery is not quite the right choice of words, but it is an attempt to circumvent the democratic process. Parts of Quebec (including some in Montreal) that voted massively Oui in 1995 did not separate and remained in Canada, and no one from the separatist side suggested that they should be allowed to separate.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,704 posts, read 14,002,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It's actually another valuable cord in Canada's arc (bad translation I know), one more angle that contributes to its attractiveness, allowing it to draw even more talented people.
This is actually very true but it also makes for the concept of unity shaky.. The Quebec Seperatist movement is the most prolific part of that obviously, but there are plenty of elements in the country that have such inclinations.. Its much easier for smaller countries with a long common history to keep things together but yes, they aren't as attractive to a wider pool of talent.. Its a bit of a conundrum for us but as I said, It is my sincere desire that we are able to keep it all together but at the same time creating an environment that will allow distinct parts to flourish.
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Old 12-10-2014, 03:21 AM
 
Location: france
799 posts, read 543,320 times
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Quebec have a lot of immigrants in general, they support independance or not?
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:08 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
Quebec have a lot of immigrants in general, they support independance or not?
Generally no. But recent arrivals seem to be somewhat more receptive.
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:09 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,931 posts, read 34,670,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
This is actually very true but it also makes for the concept of unity shaky.. The Quebec Seperatist movement is the most prolific part of that obviously, but there are plenty of elements in the country that have such inclinations.. .
Sure, but the country is the way that it is. One of the best things Canadian unity can have going for it in Quebec is that Canada is seen as an ally in the projet de société of building a diverse, modern French-speaking society.
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:57 AM
 
22,925 posts, read 14,227,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
With all due respect if you see this as the kicker you are misreading Quebec in a big way. This isn't really about how much French (or not) there is in the provinces outside Quebec. On the language issue, it's very much an internal-to-Quebec question. It's about whether Quebec itself can freely define how it can best maintain its language and culture and allow it to thrive, with minimal interference (bad choice of words I know) from the rest of the country.
Yes, I know my one example is not representative of all things missing in the mix, but the point I was trying to make is Canada needing to come to a point where the Federalists are convinced it's in all our best interests for them to take an active part in supporting Quebec's uniqueness instead of simply plotting a course of staving off the next referendum.

We are long past the time when the status-quo of sweeping the issue under the proverbial carpet only to stare like a deer caught in the headlights when it rears up again. How many times do we repeat this stupid exercise of seemingly being caught by surprise with the natural default reaction being one of: "What; them again?"

If charter discussions are what's needed, if provincial transfer formulae are what's needed, if immigration reform specific to provincial needs is what's needed, if healthcare funding reforms are what's needed, if supreme court rulings being egregious and only due to political restrictions they have to work within and reforms needed, if these among other things are seen as requirements to foster togetherness....why the delay? What the hell are we waiting for .......the next failure of the air brakes on this Canadian train?

Why is it we can spend millions on tourism campaigns but nothing on selling cohesiveness? Why is it more important to focus your entire cabinet on things like selling Keystone XL to the U.S. when the eastern pipe might not have a target province still within the fold to enable shipping of the stuff currently making Alberta rich and the rest of us comfortable to foreign countries.

It's as if the folks we elect at the top are making it up as they go along without any forethought given to maintaining the entire Canadian machine.

My frustrations stem from the fact there is nothing new about any of this, yet we still seem to wait for the next event or unforeseen happenstance we cannot control to trigger widespread dissatisfaction that we should be capable of the assumption, given many historical events, is just one stupid political miscue away.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,931 posts, read 34,670,264 times
Reputation: 10982
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Yes, I know my one example is not representative of all things missing in the mix, but the point I was trying to make is Canada needing to come to a point where the Federalists are convinced it's in all our best interests for them to take an active part in supporting Quebec's uniqueness instead of simply plotting a course of staving off the next referendum.

We are long past the time when the status-quo of sweeping the issue under the proverbial carpet only to stare like a deer caught in the headlights when it rears up again. How many times do we repeat this stupid exercise of seemingly being caught by surprise with the natural default reaction being one of: "What; them again?"

If charter discussions are what's needed, if provincial transfer formulae are what's needed, if immigration reform specific to provincial needs is what's needed, if healthcare funding reforms are what's needed, if supreme court rulings being egregious and only due to political restrictions they have to work within and reforms needed, if these among other things are seen as requirements to foster togetherness....why the delay? What the hell are we waiting for .......the next failure of the air brakes on this Canadian train?

Why is it we can spend millions on tourism campaigns but nothing on selling cohesiveness? Why is it more important to focus your entire cabinet on things like selling Keystone XL to the U.S. when the eastern pipe might not have a target province still within the fold to enable shipping of the stuff currently making Alberta rich and the rest of us comfortable to foreign countries.

It's as if the folks we elect at the top are making it up as they go along without any forethought given to maintaining the entire Canadian machine.

My frustrations stem from the fact there is nothing new about any of this, yet we still seem to wait for the next event or unforeseen happenstance we cannot control to trigger widespread dissatisfaction that we should be capable of the assumption, given many historical events, is just one stupid political miscue away.
Now we are getting somewhere!

This is a very apt description of where the Canadian political class has been on the issue over the past 10-15 years. Don't worry be happy! It's spring and the sun is shining, it's warm, the flowers are blooming, and winter won't ever come back ever again!

Of course, it's perfectly understandable. They've all seen many well-intentioned predecessors crash and burn on the issue. It's not a bad strategy to simply avoid it and cross your fingers that it won't arise again under your watch. Not very statesmanlike I know, but these days statesmen are a rare breed in politics.

What kinda sucks is that if the issue does arise again, lots of people will go to the videotape from the 1995 referendum campaign and go over what "Canada" promised, and then proceed to analyse whether or not "Canada" delivered. That's what happened in 1995 vs. 1980 and it did a lot of harm to the Non campaign. What's also problematic about this is that every time the bar gets a little higher. If you look at what Quebec might ask for in order to sign onto the Constitution, there is a lot more there than what was in Meech in 1990. The "rest of Canada" should probably have taken the Meech conditions when they were on the table and Quebec willing to play ball with them.

As for a hypothetical third referendum, it might even be worse than 1995 for the Non side as we've got little concrete stuff to show except maybe for the change from denominational to linguistic school boards. Oh and the non-applicable recognition in name only of Quebec as a nation within Canada by Parliament. Whoop tee do.

The biggest marker on the constitutional front since 1995 is actually the Clarity Act, which rightly or wrongly is viewed by most people in Quebec (including federalists) as way for Ottawa to circumvent the democratic will of Quebec. And as a desperate measure by a federal state that doesn't want to make any further concessions and wants to cast the status quo in stone, but is a bit stressed after confidently taking part in two previous referendums that it won, that the third time might not go so well. So it's unilaterally given itself a way to say "you know... all that referendum stuff doesn't really count anyway...".
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Old 12-10-2014, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Hougary, Texberta
9,019 posts, read 13,387,854 times
Reputation: 11015
There's a reason you don't negotiate with terrorists. Every time you do they ask for more...
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