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I don't know if this was overlooked. I'm still curious to hear what some people think.
Yes, in the referendums of 1980 and 1995, as well as the latest groundwork laid by the PQ, a sovereign association with ROC rather than full blown independence has been the plan. This means dual citizenship for the Quebecois and the chance for Canadians who want to be part of Quebec to join. This is in addition to sharing the Canadian dollar and open borders. The benefits for Quebec would be the ability to have free reign over internal affairs without the interference of the federal government, as well as independent control over diplomatic relations.
If Quebec seceded, would Canadians outside the province have a chance to join Quebec before it left? Would that opportunity be afforded to anglophones? What would that mean for people with Quebecois background (say one parent or grandparent, etc.) but couldn't speak fluent French at that point? Do you think they would allow two passports for Canada + Quebec?
The PQ has said that any francophones outside Quebec would be welcomed if they wanted to move to an independent Quebec. I think it's part of their program. Not sure about people who are of French Canadian origin but who don't speak French. I don't think they've mentioned anything about that, but it could just be they haven't really thought about it, or that they think that few would be interested.
The PQ have also said that they would allow Quebec citizens to have dual citizenship with Canada.
Parizeau is fair game - he was a champion of secession movement in the 90's that so many like to bring us back to.. why shouldn't the matter be discussed?
My belief is that we have not talked enough about that sentence and especially Parizeau who did not enough, in the sense that many people, from any allegance found that comment offensive and brutal.
Mr Parizeau is a very bright men and I don't believe he was pointing immigrants as beeing the people causing the lost of ´yes' votes, As he was refering to the illegal funds spent by the canadian government lead by Jean Chretien (stated by the Gomery commission) , I think he was pointing on 1) fear campains done toward various cultural community, helped by the media own by power corp. 2) rushed citizenship to potential ´no voters'. 3) federal propaganda for incoming immigrants.
I could be slightly off target, but I can say that this is how almost all people I discussed with, saw the ethnic influence and continue to see btw, none really want to talk about this as it is always been a very sensitive matter.
But I want to reiterate, the way and the timing to say such thing was not appropriate and detailed and loud justifications of his word should have been coming form him, but he didn't....politicians that worked with him know that he is intelligent, but he also have an ego that can put his collegues in trouble
I am learning alot about Canada by reading this thread. Out of curiosity can I ask why some French speakers are against their own independence?
You're probably 1) young and 2) American.
Independence/freedom/'merka are not a panacea of instant happy that get wrapped up in a nice little bow and everything is clean and neat and shiny. Especially if it's been "helped along" by the US. See; Chile, Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, South Africa and on, and on...
I am learning alot about Canada by reading this thread. Out of curiosity can I ask why some French speakers are against their own independence?
There are number of reasons why French speakers are against Quebec independence.
For starters, the Canadian arrangement has worked reasonably well for Quebec, especially in the last 30-40 years. Some (but not all) of the problems have been resolved. According to some people the major ones have been resolved and Quebec can basically function on its own terms like a country within a country. So it's as if Quebec was already 90-95% independent without the risks and downsides of actual independence. Why take the risk for so little more to gain?
Some French speakers are also insecure about their ability to run a country by themselves and have an insecurity complex. Of course, that's an odd feeling because French speaking Canadians have run Canada or helped run Canada as a whole since the beginning of the country.
Some people also have the sense that French speaking and English speaking Canadians have built Canada together, so why cut yourself off from something you helped build?
I think it should be pointed out that in spite of all the talk, Quebec doesn't really receive an inordinate amount of money from the Canadian federal government in order to ''keep'' it in Canada.
Federal transfers and other payments like equalization are determined based on a province's population and socio-economic situation and fiscal capacity, not on rumblings about separation.
If you had an anglophone Canadian province with 8 million people, no separatist movement and the same economic conditions and fiscal capacity as Quebec, it would get the same amount of money from the federal government.
Per capita, Quebec actually gets less from the feds than several other provinces, including all of the Atlantic ones and also Manitoba in Western Canada.
I am learning alot about Canada by reading this thread. Out of curiosity can I ask why some French speakers are against their own independence?
In descending order of importance? (IMO, YMMV)
- some do not see the upside of leaving Canada (i.e. the vast majority of the time, do not feel oppressed about speaking French in a mostly French province of Canada)
- some disagree with the 'leftist slant' of the general population and believe things will only get worse if we separate (or more generally: do not disagree enough with the federal gov't to want to leave)
- some believe separation is not worth it as the provincial would lose equalization payments and would likely be responsible for part of the debt of the federal government as well (this or other reasons that may or may not be economic.. "why the hassle": NAFTA, international issues, army, currency, structural issues with social programs currently managed by the federal gov't, etc.)
- some identify with Canada more than with Quebec (or more generally -- identify with Canada enough so that independence makes no sense)
- ...
To fully understand Francophone/Quebec dynamics around independence you need to realize that all of these reasons, especially the first two, have a significant contextual element, hence why support for independence became higher after Meech and then Charlottetown failed, and why in good economic times/places (Quebec City, Beauce) people are generally against separation.
I would like to see a way to make it work with the Quebeckers but I can understand why they feel the way they do. The current sustainability of French may be temporary and is entirely reliant on the Canadian federal government and a status quo. It will be interesting if French Quebec can survive the current wave of mass immigration as a cultural force in Canada. Obviously the only way to truly secure the future of French and Quebec identity is through seperatism but at least the bleeding has been stopped for now. In 1700 French was 100% of the population, in 1812 80%, in 1840 60%, in 1867 about less than 40%, in 1920 less than 30%, and today is at 23%.
I am learning alot about Canada by reading this thread. Out of curiosity can I ask why some French speakers are against their own independence?
In my point of vue, your question is very simple and bring up good fondamentals.
As a french quebecer I wish we would have enough courage and pride to assume our destiny once for all and stop beeing in the center of a costly and endless conflictual position. Plus, there would be no more room for politicians to put the blame on each others. if we fail, it's because we do things the wrong way, period and as citizens we know who to blame .
Pro-federalist politicians with the help of few important canadian companies (w/closes ties to the canadian lobby) followed closely by the medias are very agressive in Qc at putting negative pressure on seperatist partisan, started by beeing economically not capable, accused of racism, they recently seeded the idea of destruction of canada in case of separation!? wtf. Most quebecers are scared by a negative reaction from the ROC, much more than by the capability of running themselves, even if there are still damage from fear campaign of the past (often lead by convinced elected french federalist quebecers). The goal of independance have to be for qc and not against canada otherwise it will never be accepted by a majority...IMHO
Now the opposite question could be asked, why can't you stay as is and be happy once for all...well I believe that the only way Qc will be fully integrated within canada is if it becomes mainly anglophone. Quebecers are not ready for that, many do not want separation, but none wants to assimilate on the language side. Damn if you do, dawn if you don't situation
Many believe that one country can be ran by different nations (languages), I believe it's not desirable...maybe in a system where states are fully autonomous and that the federal gov is the result of states groups agreements, but in the current cannadian constitution, which is, by the way unmodifiable unless all provinces agrees
In descending order of importance? (IMO, YMMV)
- some do not see the upside of leaving Canada (i.e. the vast majority of the time, do not feel oppressed about speaking French in a mostly French province of Canada)
Upside leaving canada... many don't see the upside, but for good reason?, because they believe that they are part of a wonderful country?, yes there are, but that's not what I see the most frequently. I see much more individuals that are disillusioned and prefer the confort of not bothering. The level of pride of the population tells a lot on the situation. Known as proud people in the past, french quebecers are getting more and more cynical toward the politic and prefer to just not care about collective matter anymore..you don't see that in the ROC
I never felt oppressed of speaking french in qc and never oppressed to learn to speak english outside qc either, I alway found canadian very kind on that matter. We are not in 1837 anymore, the separation of qc is a much more modern concern, It's much more about the necessity to have a commited society (nation) to acquire all lever to face the economical challlenges while assuming sensible and sensitive cultural choices
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