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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 146 66.06%
No 75 33.94%
Voters: 221. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-07-2014, 07:54 PM
 
1,393 posts, read 2,328,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
I think you're wrong from start to finish with the "cobbled", "compromise" and "no shared vision" stuff.

Canada does not solely define it's historical roots to only as far back as WWI and was a nation being crafted long before that war. A railroad from coast to coast was built through a national dream long before those wars you mentioned.
Canada is unlike many older countries insofar as it wasn't a country which came together organically over a lengthy period of time. It wasn't populated by a people with a rich and a lengthy shared history, a shared language, a shared religion, a shared culture, shared traumas, and any number of other things which make a people want to live together and rule themselves. In a sense, Canada was a country made, not a country born. It was not put together out of a passion which made its people want to live together. Rather, it was a pragmatic business arrangement brokered between people living in disparate parts of the northern half of North America. Canada is, in some sense, a manufactured country. Some might even call it artificial.

At its very beginning, what became the Canada we know today was founded by people who were afraid of or who were dead set against the United States of America for various reasons. That's the core of the reflexive anti-American sentiment which dwells in the hearts of some Canadians to this very day. From there on out, Canadians were gradually granted more autonomy and bits were added to Canada, but those bits joined only when they got things they wanted in return for joining: a railroad, transfer payments, or whatever. These bits were added on in business deal after business deal if we call a spade a spade. Heck, even the roots of the pre-colonial country were largely mercantile in nature. The Hudson's Bay Company, anyone? What about the North West Company?

And I hardly think that a country which was unified only in part less than 50 years before the Great War could be characterised as a "nation being crafted long before that war" with a "railroad from coast to coast ... built through a national dream long before those wars you mentioned". Most of the stuff that you cite was accomplished only decades before the first of those two wars. Decades. That's it. Not centuries. Not millennia. Decades. Tenuous ties that bind peoples, many of whom were brought together over tables cutting deals for commercial benefit or for welfare benefits. Call me a cynic if you must, but I don't think those ties are particularly durable or deep.

Anyway, we're veering a bit off topic. I'm happy enough to continue a discussion about this, though, subject to the tolerance of our mods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Canal systems were envisioned and built to tie the two most populaced provinces of this country together commercially by people sharing a national vision.
Bingo, bango, here's what I was talking about. The supposed shared vision that you describe is then-shared vision of Ontario and Quebec. Most of the provinces to the east and to the west of Central Canada are at best ambivalent about that vision. Some of them are down right hostile towards it. Many of the people who live in those other parts of Canada might pay lip service to that vision. Quite a few of them don't understand it all all, though, for those two provinces are as foreign to them as New York or Illinois might be. But in my experience, that's something that some Central Canadians either don't want to understand or don't want to admit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Well since you're lost, befuddled and all; shouldn't this little bit right here provoke a response you describe as "uncalled for": "Let me know when you decide to live among your countrymen and learn their language and culture, then we cn talk about having an objective view."
No, but you do tend to have a bit of a short fuse, so I suppose that a comment like that might be enough to set you off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Ban Ki Moon has not commented publicly on the Quebec Independence movement which is, or at least was the topic of this thread. Wpouldn't you think it more appropriate to start a thread to discuss his postulating about Canada?
No, I'm perfectly happy to what I can to keep unnecessarily provincial and reflexive anti-American/anti-foreigner stuff in check on this thread, thank you very much. I've already let my real friends know that I think Ban Ki-moon was way out of line.

Last edited by maclock; 12-07-2014 at 08:49 PM..
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Old 12-07-2014, 08:00 PM
 
22,769 posts, read 13,840,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
For those of you who read and speak French, take a look at seperatist grievances. One of the grievances is that English Canadians are totally disconnected from Quebecois culture. Using the fact that some on the other side of the country put "Quebec" bumper stickers on their car and consider that to be showing interest in Quebec illustrates just how deep this disconnect is. Quebecois seperatists dont care if you put Quebec bumper stickers on your car, or proclaim to love Quebec when they threaten seperation. They care about Anglos learning about thir language and culture. They want English Canadians to at least try to understand their culture just as they have done with Anglo culture for centuries. The percentage of English Canadians who speak French is about the same as people in England who can speak French and that says alot about how interested English Canadians are in what is supposed to be an equal culture. Despite great efforts by the Canadian government, the great majority of English Canadians cannot speak French despite massive pressure by the federal government and even economic incentives.

Whether 'most' English Canadians support the marriage with Quebec or not is a question I do not have the answer to. That being said, it is undeniable that a large percentage of English Canadians see Quebec as a pain in the backside. They recognize that Canada would run far more efficiently without having to cater to two nations in one. They see Quebec as being 'bribed' with disproportionate levels of federal funds. There are also many who feel that the Quebecois blackmail the ROC with seperation if they don't get their way. As a result many English Canadians have an attitude of 'good riddance' towards Quebec. Just like the Quebecois seperatists, they are not interested in who flies the maple leaf flag or who is offically part of Canada on a world map. Like the Quebecois seperatists they see clearly that these are two foreign groups of people. Like the seperatists, they want a system that works, and they feel that the status quo isn't working.
Oh for heaven's sake! I would stake my last penny on the completely provable fact that Canadians from the ROC are far more aware and familiar with Quebec and it's unique culture than the average Quebecer has attempted to learn about Canada and it's various unique cultures across the country for any reason other than personal prosperity.

Love the way you casually throw it out that many Canadians "feel that Quebecois blackmail ........" as though that is completely unjustified and without factual foundation.

No English group has yet to form that kidnaps or murders anyone to further it's aim of anti-Quebec. There have been no letter bombs mailed to Quebecers to stimulate them to hurry up with their divorce.

Is there a political party in existence we have not heard of that sits in the house to separate any other province or group thereof from Canada due solely to grievance with Quebec?

I am interested in who flies the Maple Leaf and would desire that all Canadians were proud to do so. My Canada would include Quebec. Canada will not be Canada without her. Having said all of that, what would you see as the final solution to appease Quebecois who wrap themselves in the sackcloth of victimhood as though an unwillingness by Vancouverites or any other Canadians to learn French means something nefarious other than simply indicating a lack of necessity to do so.

If you could force compliance of language upon English speakers; are you also prepared to perform the same feat of legerdemain upon all Quebeckers?

This stuff just gets so tiresome.
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Old 12-07-2014, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,665,071 times
Reputation: 2206
Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
Canada is unlike many older countries insofar as it wasn't a country which came together organically over a lengthy period of time. It wasn't populated by a people with a rich and a lengthy shared history, a shared language, a shared religion, a shared culture, shared traumas, and any number of other things which make a people want to live together and rule themselves. In a sense, Canada was a country made, not a country born. It was not put together out of a passion which made its people want to live together. Rather, it was a pragmatic business arrangement brokered between people living in disparate parts of the northern half of North America. Canada is, in some sense, a manufactured country. Some might even call it artificial.

At its very beginning, what became the Canada we know today was founded by people who were afraid of or who were dead set against the United States of America for various reasons. That's the core of the reflexive anti-American sentiment which dwells in the hearts of some Canadians to this very day. From there on out, Canadians were gradually granted more autonomy and bits were added to Canada, but those bits joined only when they got things they wanted in return for joining: a railroad, transfer payments, or whatever. These bits were added on in business deal after business deal if we call a spade a spade. Heck, even the roots of the pre-colonial country were largely mercantile in nature. The Hudson's Bay Company, anyone? What about the North West Company?

And I hardly think that a country which was unified only in part less than 50 years before the Great War could be characterised as a "nation being crafted long before that war" with a "railroad from coast to coast ... built through a national dream long before those wars you mentioned". Most of the stuff that you cite was accomplished only decades before the first of those two wars. Decades. That's it. Not centuries. Not millennia. Decades. Tenuous ties that bind peoples, many of whom were brought together over tables cutting deals for commercial benefit or for welfare benefits. Call me a cynic if you must, but I don't think those ties are particularly durable or deep.

Anyway, we're veering a bit off topic. I'm happy enough to continue a discussion about this, though, subject to the tolerance of our mods.

Bingo, bango, here's what I was talking about. The supposed shared vision that you describe is then-shared vision of Ontario and Quebec. Most of the provinces to the east and to the west of Central Canada are at best ambivalent about that vision. Some of them are down right hostile towards it. Many of the people who live in those other parts of Canada might pay lip service to that vision. Quite a few of them don't understand it all all, though, for those two provinces are as foreign to them as New York or Illinois might be. But in my experience, that's something that some Central Canadians either don't want to understand or don't want to admit.
Excellent points. One of my Canadian history professors back in the day described Canada as a government building a nation, whereas most other countries are a nation trying to build a government. I also enoyed the article on the Laurentian Consensus. I believe it is very accurate to say that the power base in Canada has decisively shifted westwards, and as a result ruptured the traditional political dynamic between Ontario and Quebec that once guided Canada as a whole. The effects of this are evident in Quebec. The rise of popular political parties like the CAQ show how even Quebecois who aren't pushing for independence are less than ambivalent about any pan-Canadian unity. Even large swaths of Quebec Liberals wholeheartedly support Quebec's autonomy and are Quebecois first and Canadian second. The popularity of the Liberals relies on promises of maintanng autonomy and preserving Quebec as a unique society. No major party promotes the idea of giving up autonomy to become more integrated into ROC. That would be politcal suicide. At this point in time, Quebec has become so far removed from the ROC that even the 'no' side has been watered down into a Quebec-centric political body. Generally speaking, the political scene in Quebec now operates as if Quebec is it's own independent country. The collapse of the Laurentian consensus has contributed immeasurably to this increased detatchment of Quebec from the ROC.
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
11,260 posts, read 15,319,498 times
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I'm actually learning a lot in this thread. Not much of a politics person here, so I can't jump in the discussion, one way or another. All I do know is I would hate for Quebec to leave. It is an integral part of what makes Canada great.

Thanks for those of you discussing the matter.
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,347 posts, read 13,562,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post


Not much if we're being honest. I'll readily agree that it's a decent place to work and it's a good country, especially if one has a family to raise, but I'm not a big homer when it comes to Canada. There are other good countries out there as well. Canada-centric, I'm not.
I think most younger Canadians take pride in the country and want to see it succeed - preferably a united Canada.. There is pride in the fact that despite the differences that we have, be it language, culture, sexual orientation, race we can all work together to make this a great home.. I think it would be a case where if we lost it or it became splintered into one or more different nations, we'd all look back and say, what happened and I think we would regret it.. I've got friends and family across the land of from many walks of life and I do think most of them take a greater pride than this is just some decent place to raise a family...

The above doesn't mean i'm 'Canada' centric or some silly homer on City Data... Being proud in your country and wanting to work together from shore to shore to shore to make it a better place for us all isn't some blind patriotism or someone who lacks objectivity - it is taking stock in what we have accomplished together - a country that offers so many from a variety of stripes a great home and future.. This isn't to say there aren't other great nations or we don't have our blights but we have one of the best here.. I think anyone who has travelled the world and seen how most live would largely agree witht that.

We can let politics and mistakes of the past be the defining part of who we are now, or we can look at what we have and what we can have for a brighter future.. At the minimimum you say Canada is a good country if one has to raise a family (Id argue its a great country even if you aren't raising a family such as my partner and I - who by the way comes from Venezuela, ask him what he thinks of Canada and what it represents vs where he is from) well lets look at what we can do for those kids to create a better country for them instead of getting lost in a world of negativity and indifference just to make a point that you are someone balanced and objective poster on an internet forum..

Last edited by fusion2; 12-07-2014 at 10:26 PM..
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,347 posts, read 13,562,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnatomicflux View Post
I'm actually learning a lot in this thread. Not much of a politics person here, so I can't jump in the discussion, one way or another. All I do know is I would hate for Quebec to leave. It is an integral part of what makes Canada great.

Thanks for those of you discussing the matter.
I think most Canadians aren't as obsessed with politics or living in the past as others Mags - but we are a people with a shared history, home, values and future and it is more than what some in here would like to describe based on what they learned in a history class or lost in some book and endlessly analyzing divisive elements.. For the majority of us Canadians the country represents more than these things which is why lo and behold - we're still moving forward - united and in spite of them, I think that this place will continue to hum along and shine brightly...This isn't to say we should be ignorant or oblivous or our challenges and injustices, but there are certainly those who would in seeing things fall apart as opposed to building bridges to bring people together.

Last edited by fusion2; 12-07-2014 at 10:45 PM..
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:39 PM
 
1,393 posts, read 2,328,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
The above doesn't mean i'm 'Canada' centric or some silly homer on City Data... Being proud in your country and wanting to work together from shore to shore to shore to make it a better place for us all isn't some blind patriotism or someone who lacks objectivity - it is taking stock in what we have accomplished together - a country that offers so many from a variety of stripes a great home and future.. This isn't to say there aren't other great nations or we don't have our blights but we have one of the best here.. I think anyone who has travelled the world and seen how most live would largely agree witht that.
No offense, but I've witnessed you homer with the best of them when it comes to Canada and to Toronto. Sorry, but that's my own admittedly subjective impression. You may not see it that way, and that's perfectly understandable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
We can let politics and mistakes of the past be the defining part of who we are now, or we can look at what we have and what we can have for a brighter future.. At the minimimum you say Canada is a good country if one has to raise a family (Id argue its a great country even if you aren't raising a family such as my partner and I - who by the way comes from Venezuela, ask him what he thinks of Canada and what it represents vs where he is from) well lets look at what we can do for those kids to create a better country for them instead of getting lost in a world of negativity and indifference just to make a point that you are someone balanced and objective on an internet forum..[Emphasis added]
I don't know why people always do this. Yes, I do fully expect that Canada would be thought to be a vastly superior country when it's compared with Venezuela. That isn't a fair comparison in my opinion, and I try to limit my comparisons of Canada to other leading advanced democracies.

Anyway, that aside, are you saying that we should ignore our history and our efforts to be balanced and objective and instead be positive in a way that flatters your world view? Is that what you would have us do? Emotion should never triumph over objectivity in my opinion. That's a recipe for disaster more often than not.
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,347 posts, read 13,562,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
No offense, but I've witnessed you homer with the best of them when it comes to Canada and to Toronto. Sorry, but that's my own admittedly subjective impression. You may not see it that way, and that's perfectly understandable.

I don't know why people always do this. Yes, I do fully expect that Canada would be thought to be a vastly superior country when it's compared with Venezuela. That isn't a fair comparison in my opinion, and I try to limit my comparisons of Canada to other leading advanced democracies.

Anyway, that aside, are you saying that we should ignore our history and our efforts to be balanced and objective and instead be positive in a way that flatters your world view? Is that what you would have us do? Emotion should never triumph over objectivity in my opinion. That's a recipe for disaster more often than not.
You need to have a certain passion and love for a place and its people for it to succeed and move forward.. Even in the corporate world, at the root of what makes a company successful is passion and love for a service or product that it has or wants to build.. So if calling one a homer and describing yourself as 'objective' is a way for you to sort of dissassociate from your community or your nation and this is something that works for you, i am not going to judge you but this is not a team building approach.. It is an approach that disconnects one from others except for those who share the same negative views - misery loves company. I see nothing aspirational, inspirational or any type of advocacy for improvement from your posts - just a constant critique and highlight of what you see as issues.

As for your constent use of the word homer to describe me - you've selectively cherry picked my posts that underline the positive aspects of a city or a country while turning a blind eye not only to my critiques but also my 'homeristic' post of other places and people's.. I generally only see you post in the Canada section - I post in all kinds threads in the CD sphere so why not look at all my posts if you pride yourself on 'objectivity' - For example I have critiqued Toronto on numerous occasions for its issue with mass transit infrastructure and the horrendous behaviour our TPS is doing in the Black community with racial profiling and carding..

I'm not advocating we ignore history or ignore the challenges we face, but I would never advocate for a people to be indifferent and disconnected from building bridges for a better future and become endlessly lost in the details of history, and negativity.. Essentially this is what I see you as, someone who has no interest in making this a better place, only someone who wants to underscore what you see as wrong with it and you will naturally gravitate to those who have the same schtick.. What is more dangerous you ask.. I'll leave that for my fellow Canadians to decide..

Last edited by fusion2; 12-07-2014 at 11:09 PM..
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Old 12-07-2014, 11:19 PM
 
1,393 posts, read 2,328,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
You need to have a certain passion and love for a place and its people for it to succeed and move forward.. Even in the corporate world, at the root of what makes a company successful is passion and love for a service or product that it has or wants to build.. So if calling one a homer and describing yourself as 'objective' is a way for you to sort of dissassociate from your community or your nation and this is something that works for you, i am not going to judge you but this is not a team building approach.. It is an approach that disconnects one from others except for those who share the same negative views - misery loves company.
Judge much? I'm a dispassionate individual. Some might describe me as being somewhat emotionless or a bit of a cold fish. You're not. You're a passionate, emotional individual. The difference between us would appear to be as simple as that. "[N]egative ... mystery loves company." Oh my!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
As for your constent use of the word homer to describe me - you've selectively cherry picked my posts that underline the positive aspects of a city or a country while turning a blind eye not only to my critiques but also my 'homeristic' post of other places and people's.. I generally only see you post in the Canada section - I post in all kinds threads in the CD sphere so why not look at all my posts if you pride yourself on 'objectivity' - For example I have critiqued Toronto on numerous occasions for its issue with mass transit infrastructure and the horrendous our TPS is doing in the Black community with racial profiling and carding..
I don't really care about you pointing out the shortcomings of Toronto with which I'm already familiar. Anyway, you appear to be one of those optimistic types who have a viewpoint about Canada with which many like me aren't likely to agree. That's not a problem, but we're out there, we're not going away, and we don't intend to remain silent. You know that, though, so we can continue to engage in dialogue via these threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I'm not advocating we ignore history or ignore the challenges we face, but I would never advocate for a people to be indifferent and disconnected from building bridges for a better future and not become lost in history, and negativity.. Essentially this is what I see you as, someone who has no interest in making this a better place, only someone who wants to underscore what you see as wrong with it and you will naturally gravitate to those who have the same schtick.. What is more dangerous you ask.. I'll leave that for my fellow Canadians to decide..
Well, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried, but thank you very much for trying to depict me as a negative person with nothing of value to add. In my present role, I work constantly for the betterment of my fellow Albertans. Canadians across the land in turn benefit from the work done by me and my colleagues. Not that many of those Canadians truly appreciate our efforts or the value that we add, but I digress.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,727 posts, read 33,923,700 times
Reputation: 10805
Looks like there's been a party going on in my backyard and I wasn't invited!
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