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Yea whatever, kid. Youre just another snow bumpkin looking for a government handout. If you can't prove that the widespread allegations of fraud and misconduct are false at least be straightforward and admit it. Vote rigging aside, at least have the courage that your loyalist ancestors lacked and admit that you and your cronies rely on campaigns of fear, intimidation and bribery to keep Quebec under the rule of your monarchy.
There were widespread allegations of fraud - on the other side:
Your definition of fraud seems to hinge on Anglophones being given the vote. Which, of course, is ridiculous for those of us who are talking about the Canada on the ground and not the image of it you've built in your head from afar, reading about history without any sense of what the real day to day society is like. You call Quebec oppressed by evil colonialists? French Canadians have the vote, equal federal language rights, and are in every way equal citizens who can fully participate in Canada. It's insulting to me that you would draw equivalency between this situation and actual British colonialist oppression, something my grandparents suffered under and fought against in India. It is not the same thing. It is not even close. Your suggestion that hundreds of thousands of people who have made their lives in a place, many of whom have centuries of family history in Quebec and care about where they live, many with varying amounts of French Canadian blood of their own, to suggest that these people should have had their rights to a say on what happened to the province they lived in stripped away from them? That they should have been reduced to second class citizens simply by virtue of being from the wrong ethno-cultural minority? Well, that's not so different in my opinion.
It'd also have been impossible, as lines between groups have always been fuzzy on the ground. As for federalist fraud, I think the only allegation has ever been that they may have gone somewhat over the limit on advertising, but even then I think it wasn't by a huge amount. Certainly nothing on the level of the spoiled ballots scandal.
There were widespread allegations of fraud - on the other side:
There were allegations of fraud on both sides, but of course federalists will tend to concentrate on allegations against the Yes side, while sovereigntists will concentrate on allegations against the No side. On page 2 larrycarver quotes some Acajack posts about the allegations against the No campaign and the federal government who of course was supporting it. I have no idea what side was the "dirtiest", and honestly it won't serve any purpose as the referendum is over and done anyway.
But this said, BIMBAM, this attitude of yours is one of the main concerns I have about Canada. Instead of really trying to understand how francophones in Quebec view this country and how this lead to the birth of an independence movement, you just dismiss everything as exclusionary nationalism as per your post on page 1, and just assert that francophones should be perfectly happy with Canada as it is.
That's always the problem I've had with debating with English Canadians: Canadian nation-building has been so successful at labelling the country a moral example for the whole world that they assume anybody who has any concern at all about the way Canada is set up must be stupid or evil.
That's always the problem I've had with debating with English Canadians: Canadian nation-building has been so successful at labelling the country a moral example for the whole world that they assume anybody who has any concern at all about the way Canada is set up must be stupid or evil.
I think we should have concerns about our union and I don't think we do enough to build bridges and truly understand one another so that we do have a relationship that is solid and will stand the test of time, but I do think that those concerns should come from people within who have skin in the game.. People who genuinely care about the country and that is Canadians - not some 'outsiders' who are trying to stir the pot like hysterical drama queens on acid..
Some say that they are a nuisance. Others see them as freedom fighters. Since the conquest of French Canada in the mid 1700's, there has been a conceted effort to keep Quebecois culture alive amidst a sea of over 330 million Anglos. Despite being marginalization by the Anglo-dominated government and being assimilated in other provinces, French speakers have persisted as the majority in the province of Quebec. The Quebec seperatists lost referendums for independence in 1980 and 1995 (the second time by a razor thin margin of 1%) but these elections have been called into question under allegations of vote tampering and fraud. Despite these defeats, independence remains a permanent fixture in Quebec and greater Canadian politics.
What do you think? Does the Quebec independence movement carry legitimate grievances, or are they a group of opportunistic troublemakers?
I vote No.
Living in New York, I love having Quebec as a neighbor. Montreal in particular, is surprisingly close.
I am glad that they are fighting to save the French culture in Quebec. Kudos to them.
But supporting Quebec independence to the point of breaking up a beautiful country like Canada? Absolutely not.
Living in New York, I love having Quebec as a neighbor. Montreal in particular, is surprisingly close.
I am glad that they are fighting to save the French culture in Quebec. Kudos to them.
But supporting Quebec independence to the point of breaking up a beautiful country like Canada? Absolutely not.
The question asks if it is a legitimate movement not if you prefer a united Canada. Out of curiosity - do you see a group of people who were conquered by force and made second class citizens for most of their history to be out of line if they want independence. If this was a country in Africa or Asia, what would you say?
There were allegations of fraud on both sides, but of course federalists will tend to concentrate on allegations against the Yes side, while sovereigntists will concentrate on allegations against the No side. On page 2 larrycarver quotes some Acajack posts about the allegations against the No campaign and the federal government who of course was supporting it. I have no idea what side was the "dirtiest", and honestly it won't serve any purpose as the referendum is over and done anyway.
But this said, BIMBAM, this attitude of yours is one of the main concerns I have about Canada. Instead of really trying to understand how francophones in Quebec view this country and how this lead to the birth of an independence movement, you just dismiss everything as exclusionary nationalism as per your post on page 1, and just assert that francophones should be perfectly happy with Canada as it is.
That's always the problem I've had with debating with English Canadians: Canadian nation-building has been so successful at labelling the country a moral example for the whole world that they assume anybody who has any concern at all about the way Canada is set up must be stupid or evil.
I agree 100%. I first went to Montreal with no real interest in independence, and what I did know about it was hinged on what I saw in English Canadian newspapers (which I soon realized are amazingly one sided in this issue). But as I learned French I started seeing things from the Francophone side which is an infinitely more balanced view. Unfortunately loads of English Canadians, lets be honest most of them, could care less about French let alone seeing things from the Francophone Quebecois' perspective. I was really shocked to see the condescending view held towards the seperatists (and Quebecois in general). Someone said earlier that it is the federalists in ROC who force the Quebecois to choose between Canada and Quebec and I have found this to be very true. I agree that the federalist stance held by many English Canadians are filled with double standards. It is interesting to see the seperatists shamelessly painted as racist, sexist, dumb, backwards, poor, ignorant while the federalist Quebecois are made out to be the good ones. But when questioned about this the same people deny having any prejudice against the Quebecois. IIRC there were accusations of fraud thrown at the seperatists in 1980 that were later performed by the 'no' side in 1995 but of course they are ignored by the federalists. Personally I know Quebec will seperate, its just a matter of time. Even as Quebec remains officially part of Canada it continues to drift apart much like Canada slowly left the Brtish.
I agree 100%. I first went to Montreal with no real interest in independence, and what I did know about it was hinged on what I saw in English Canadian newspapers (which I soon realized are amazingly one sided in this issue). But as I learned French I started seeing things from the Francophone side which is an infinitely more balanced view. Unfortunately loads of English Canadians, lets be honest most of them, could care less about French let alone seeing things from the Francophone Quebecois' perspective. I was really shocked to see the condescending view held towards the seperatists (and Quebecois in general). Someone said earlier that it is the federalists in ROC who force the Quebecois to choose between Canada and Quebec and I have found this to be very true. I agree that the federalist stance held by many English Canadians are filled with double standards. It is interesting to see the seperatists shamelessly painted as racist, sexist, dumb, backwards, poor, ignorant while the federalist Quebecois are made out to be the good ones. But when questioned about this the same people deny having any prejudice against the Quebecois. IIRC there were accusations of fraud thrown at the seperatists in 1980 that were later performed by the 'no' side in 1995 but of course they are ignored by the federalists. Personally I know Quebec will seperate, its just a matter of time. Even as Quebec remains officially part of Canada it continues to drift apart much like Canada slowly left the Brtish.
How much time have you spent in the rest of Canada? I don't think you really know us very well.. You lived and spent your time in Quebec when you were in Canada. Have you lived in T.O, Vancouver, Halifax, Calgary to formulate a meaningful and true picture of how the rest of us 'feel' or are you content to assume things and 'feel' on our behalf?
The last part where you say that you personally know Quebec will seperate - well that is total speculation and conjecture but at the end of the day, you don't have any skin in this game as a foreigner. It would be like me going down to the southern U.S and living/going to school or working within a culture than coming back to Canada going into Georgia or South Carolina forum and stating that in my heart I know that the U.S will someday fracture and that the confederates will claim the 'rightful' country that they deserve. Remember, they wanted to be seperate from the Union and were forced back in the Union by Cannons, not because they 'saw the light' and voted to go back...
Anyway, even within Quebec you don't have a strong majority seperatist sentament - especially in Montreal!
As an 'English' Canadian I care every bit as much as Quebec as I do any other part of the country and I'm all for the preservation of language and culture. I find it extraordinarily offensive for someone from outside of Canada presuming to speak on our behalf - especially from someone who is living in the past, has no roots in Canada, only spent a short period of time here and no longer even resides here and lives in Maryland and who ultimately wants to move to Honululu - who also constantly mocks Canada including Quebec for being too cold to inhabit.. Fortunately for Canada and Quebec, the elected Premier of the province is living in 2014 and is looking to the future...
How much time have you spent in the rest of Canada? I don't think you really know us very well.. You lived and spent your time in Quebec when you were in Canada. Have you lived in T.O, Vancouver, Halifax, Calgary to formulate a meaningful and true picture of how the rest of us 'feel' or are you content to assume things and 'feel' on our behalf?
The last part where you say that you personally know Quebec will seperate - well that is total speculation and conjecture but at the end of the day, you don't have any skin in this game as a foreigner. It would be like me going down to the southern U.S and living/going to school or working within a culture and stating that in my heart I know that the U.S will someday fracture and that the confederates will claim the 'rightful' country that they deserve. Remember, they wanted to be seperate from the Union and were forced back in the Union by Cannons...
Anyway, even within Quebec you don't have a strong majority seperatist sentament - especially in Montreal!
As an 'English' Canadian I care every bit as much as Quebec as I do any other part of the country and I'm all for the preservation of language and culture.
So you speak fluent French? Didn't think so. I am more 'Canadian' in this regard than 95% of English Cabadians who claim to 'like' Quebec. Let me know when you decide to live among your countrymen and learn their language and culture, then we cn talk about having an objective view. Personally its easier to deal with one country north of me rather than two, but the movement is as legitimate as they come. It's just a shame that English Canadian media is so biased the vast majority of ROCers have no interest in seeing things from this minorities perspective.
So you speak fluent French? Didn't think so. I am more 'Canadian' in this regard than 95% of English Cabadians who claim to 'like' Quebec. Let me know when you decide to live among your countrymen and learn their language and culture, then we cn talk about having an objective view. Personally its easier to deal with one country north of me rather than two, but the movement is as legitimate as they come. It's just a shame that English Canadian media is so biased the vast majority of ROCers have no interest in seeing things from this minorities perspective.
Actually i'd love to be able to speak French and I don't that is true but that isn't to say that I don't respect the fact that Canada has two official language and I hold zero against anyone in Canada who speaks just French. I've spent more time in Quebec than any other Province except my own, had more lovers from Quebec than any other province by far and have more friends from Quebec than any other province by far.. I can't live their because my home, work and family is in Toronto.. For the same reason I can't live in Montreal I can't live in Vancouver or Halifax either.. I don't hold it against anyone in Quebec that they can't move around the country either - Quebec is their home and I understand that.. It also doesn't mean that just because I don't speak French - doesn't mean I don't have ties to Quebec and Quebecers or that I don't respect their language and culture - I do both personally and professionally - I work with a TON of Quebecers from Air Canada and Air Transat and they are certainly good and open minded people as a whole and very much interconnected with Toronto.. I actually love the culture and love the province but a languages guy - i'm not... Please - don't presume to think that you know what is in my heart or the hearts of Canadians as a whole!
Great you speak the language but ultimately you don't live in Canada, you are a foreigner and you have no desire to move to Quebec and live in Quebec and fight the fight so to speak.. I'd have more respect for your position, language or not if you simply lived in Quebec and showed real dedication to its future by supporting it by living there and supporting its economy and its people over the long haul as permanent local .. Instead you have set up base in Maryland, are American and want to move to Honululu and you mock all Canadians for our weather constantly.. Seriously dude lol..
I never questioned the legitamacy of the movement at any time and I'm happy we live in a country where this movement can exist without being squashed by gunfire! Having said all that, it is a decision for the people of Quebec to ultimately make - not foreigners. You're free to have your views but please don't speak on behalf of Canadians and don't speak on behalf of Quebecers - they will decide their own future!
Come to speak of it - I think if there is one collective message the world would have for the U.S and in particular the U.S government is to STAY OUT of other nations affairs!
Last edited by fusion2; 12-07-2014 at 11:08 AM..
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Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
