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Quebecians are nice, in fact most of them are lovely, but their sense of entitlement is unbelievable and they keep electing European-style elitists who do not reflect the values of mainstream Canada. Also, the influential French media are left-leaning jackasses who flunked Economics 101.
Quebec please serve the divorce papers as soon as you can ! It is high time we remove an irritant from the Canadian body politic, much like a dog scratches to rid itself of fleas. Canada would get a huge bonus as much of the NDP base would leave with them.
I haven't done much research on how Quebeckers were treated outside of the Quebec years ago, but can go by my family on both sides. My dad's side came out to Vancouver in 1909. Never had any issues that were passed down to the family and actually did very well in their business out here.
My mother side came out in 1950, and same thing. My grandmother would of been 40 and grandfather 42. My grandmother didn't speak a word of english, but learned. Her stories of those times never mentioned any hostility towards her or her family. In fact, she remembered those days fondly.
Yes it's true what you say about language, but it's not a reflection on english Canada that this is so.
Everyone has their own definition of what bad treatment is. For some English-speaking Quebecers, running into francophones who will not switch to English for them constitutes bad treatment. Just one example...
I suspect that the reticence of people to take up BruSan's offer was probably related to that. In the 70s and 80s most parts of Anglo-Canada didn't even have French schools like they do today.
I suspect many English Canadians might not be aware of this, given the emphasis on "Canada is bilingual" in Canadian identity discourse (and its corollary, "Quebec is trying to stamp out English with bill 101"). On another board I once posted something saying that if I were in Alberta, for example, I wouldn't even think of trying to speak French. The response was unanimous: of course I could speak French in Alberta, and if, for example, I went to a hospital in Calgary, I could get served in French.
The person who said this wasn't joking. They actually believed that. You and I both know that even in Ottawa being served in French can be difficult, even in the health system, which is why Franco-Ontarians fought so hard for Montfort to stay open. The Official Languages Commissioner's reports are analysed in francophone media, so we are aware that outside Quebec and a few special spots in the rest of Canada, you have to resign yourself to live your outside life in English. They don't get discussed so much in anglo media; actually I think Mr. Fraser includes some paragraphs about how Quebec could serve its anglophone community better in order to get them to pay attention and maybe say a few words about the rest of the report. But I wouldn't be surprised to get an English Canadian who'd sincerely believe that francophones in, say, Alberta are better treated than anglophones in Quebec. Because Canada is officially bilingual and officially supportive of its francophone communities, while Quebec has in the past shown some hostility to its anglophone community.
And what's interesting is that if I manage to convince this anglophone that it's just not true that they'd serve my in French in a Calgary hospital, their reaction will usually be that it's understandable, because there are so few francophones in Calgary that it wouldn't be economically feasible to ensure service. Actually there are other languages that are more widely spoken than French over there. So I shouldn't expect service in French. Well, yeah: that's exactly what I was saying at first. You can't both say that of course I can be served in French in Canada because "Canada is bilingual", and then give an excuse when it turns out I cannot. "It's the intention that counts" isn't enough here. You either offer the service, or accept that since you cannot offer it English Canada will be less attractive to me and might not feel like "home" since I (and my children if we ever get there) will have to check our language at home.
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I suspect that the reticence of people to take up BruSan's offer was probably related to that. In the 70s and 80s most parts of Anglo-Canada didn't even have French schools like they do today.
Possibly. But also, even if you're an anglophone moving to Quebec City to do French immersion, with a requirement to perform and so on, you know you'll be able to manage somehow. Need to rent an apartment when you arrive? Well, your landlord probably does speak English, at least somewhat, or anyway you can find somebody who will interpret for you. Need to go to the hospital or to a clinic? Yeah, you'll be served in English.
For a (say, unilingual or almost) francophone moving to a very anglo part of Canada, this does not exist. You may be able to find another expat Quebecer to interpret for you, if they exist there. But in any case your "immersion" will be much more extensive than what the anglophone in Quebec will experience.
ETA: And now that I think about it, I shouldn't need to justify francophone Quebecers deciding not to move somewhere else in Canada when offered the opportunity. Even if, yes, it's quite easy to justify, and even if "but anglophones did it!" It's everybody's own business if they want to do this or not. We don't have a duty to please BruSan or anything like that.
I personally speak fluent English so I might work in English Canada at some point, maybe. But honestly I think the US attracts me more.
Last edited by Migratory Chicken; 12-09-2014 at 03:47 AM..
I suspect many English Canadians might not be aware of this, given the emphasis on "Canada is bilingual" in Canadian identity discourse (and its corollary, "Quebec is trying to stamp out English with bill 101"). On another board I once posted something saying that if I were in Alberta, for example, I wouldn't even think of trying to speak French. The response was unanimous: of course I could speak French in Alberta, and if, for example, I went to a hospital in Calgary, I could get served in French.
No comment on the argument.
I wonder though, if we have met each other on that other board, Migratory Chicken. Could you PM me and let me know on which board you made your argument?
But I wouldn't be surprised to get an English Canadian who'd sincerely believe that francophones in, say, Alberta are better treated than anglophones in Quebec. Because Canada is officially bilingual and officially supportive of its francophone communities, while Quebec has in the past shown some hostility to its anglophone community.
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You can bet your bottom dollar that that sentiment exists. It's especially strong in Ontario which because of its French Language Services Act has bilingual road signs in places like Ottawa and even Toronto. So that's a very visible example that people see every time they are out and about. It doesn't take away from the fact that Franco-Ontarians have far fewer health care, education and government service options in their language than Anglo-Quebecers do. Your average non-francophone Ontarian doesn't go out seeking educational, health care of government services in French so they have no real idea of how plentiful (or not) they are, but almost all of them drive on the highway system and see the bilingual signs.
"It's such BS that here in (insert name of city of province in Anglo-Canada) everything has to be bilingual, but over in Quebec everything is in French only" is a huge meme in Anglo-Canada. And not just in Ontario and New Brunswick believe it or not. I've heard it from many westerners.
Everyone has their own definition of what bad treatment is. For some English-speaking Quebecers, running into francophones who will not switch to English for them constitutes bad treatment. Just one example...
I suspect that the reticence of people to take up BruSan's offer was probably related to that. In the 70s and 80s most parts of Anglo-Canada didn't even have French schools like they do today.
Yep, it just stands to reason that the reasons Quebecers would resist embracing another part of Canada and it's culture would be far more challenging than for the English to move somewhere they'd be downright made to feel uncomfortable while unloading the darn truck, but hey..... we already knew that, right?
Concern over conditions being unfavourable for their language and culture???? Two way street A/J.
Assimilation? Cripes. Canada is now the Borg? And what of those moving to Quebec knowing that while still in Canada, retention or usage of the English language to perform their daily lives being frowned upon? C'mon A/J.
You can suspect what you wish but as I mentioned in my first post; demographics from all spectrum were encouraged to apply and the average age of the work force at that time in the company within Quebec was 48.
There were all the same markers applicable across the board throughout the company of empty nesters, singles, divorced, even same sex couples.
The English part of the equation fully understood from briefings by Quebec staffers the animosity they would undoubtedly face but were given to understand that would diminish with time and effort on their part, they were willing ...... Quebecers didn't give a rip of what they might face they were simply not interested in experiencing anything to do with the "other Canada" at all.
I have a further post script to add: the Ville La Salle and Quebec city locations eventually closed in the mid nineties and employees of less than pensionable age were given options to move to the then newer and larger Guelph Plant to continue to accrue pension benefits entitlement years and finish their careers. 38 made the move and were welcomed with open arms into all manner of clubs, associations, cliques, churches, evening school courses, with some of the local employees from neighbouring industry attending the evening French speaking courses held by volunteers from the group of transferees on our Guelph site. You can only imagine the exchange of recipes.
I bridle at your continued insistence the effort is never forthcoming on behalf of English Canadians to accommodate the normal interactions that would be required of anyone when two disparate groups are trying to become friends.
I also cannot imagine why you insist that the burden or hardship required to move from anywhere within Quebec to the ROC would be any more difficult than upon someone moving into the heart of the province from outside it. If the desire is there, the rest is up to the individual to put forth the effort.
It is that "desire", or rather the lack of it, I'm attempting to describe as being in no way unique to the ROC. The lack of desire exists across provincial lines both ways.
Yep, it just stands to reason that the reasons Quebecers would resist embracing another part of Canada and it's culture would be far more challenging than for the English to move somewhere they'd be downright made to feel uncomfortable while unloading the darn truck, but hey..... we already knew that, right?
Concern over conditions being unfavourable for their language and culture???? Two way street A/J.
Assimilation? Cripes. Canada is now the Borg? And what of those moving to Quebec knowing that while still in Canada, retention or usage of the English language to perform their daily lives being frowned upon? C'mon A/J.
You can suspect what you wish but as I mentioned in my first post; demographics from all spectrum were encouraged to apply and the average age of the work force at that time in the company within Quebec was 48.
There were all the same markers applicable across the board throughout the company of empty nesters, singles, divorced, even same sex couples.
The English part of the equation fully understood from briefings by Quebec staffers the animosity they would undoubtedly face but were given to understand that would diminish with time and effort on their part, they were willing ...... Quebecers didn't give a rip of what they might face they were simply not interested in experiencing anything to do with the "other Canada" at all.
I have a further post script to add: the Ville La Salle and Quebec city locations eventually closed in the mid nineties and employees of less than pensionable age were given options to move to the then newer and larger Guelph Plant to continue to accrue pension benefits entitlement years and finish their careers. 38 made the move and were welcomed with open arms into all manner of clubs, associations, cliques, churches, evening school courses, with some of the local employees from neighbouring industry attending the evening French speaking courses held by volunteers from the group of transferees on our Guelph site. You can only imagine the exchange of recipes.
I bridle at your continued insistence the effort is never forthcoming on behalf of English Canadians to accommodate the normal interactions that would be required of anyone when two disparate groups are trying to become friends.
I also cannot imagine why you insist that the burden or hardship required to move from anywhere within Quebec to the ROC would be any more difficult than upon someone moving into the heart of the province from outside it. If the desire is there, the rest is up to the individual to put forth the effort.
It is that "desire", or rather the lack of it, I'm attempting to describe as being in no way unique to the ROC. The lack of desire exists across provincial lines both ways.
Thanks for the call out but it sounds like much of this is for Migratory Chicken, not me.
In any event, the assimilation issue is a real one. The Quebec City High School teaching in English has existed since at least the 1940s, and K to 12 English education in Quebec City has existed for longer than that.
From what I know of the battle for francophone schools in Anglo-Canada, the first francophone schools in Guelph likely opened in the late 80s. It might even have been in the 90s.
On cable TV in Quebec City close to half the channels available are in English.
It's not the same type of immersion at all. Trust me. I've been there as a francophone in anglophone cities where there were almost no French speakers.
But yeah, no one will burn crosses on your lawn. (Though they might egg or soap your car windows at Halloween...)
It's not really about outright hostility. It's about feeling like an immigrant in your own country.
Everyone has their own definition of what bad treatment is. For some English-speaking Quebecers, running into francophones who will not switch to English for them constitutes bad treatment. Just one example...
I suspect that the reticence of people to take up BruSan's offer was probably related to that. In the 70s and 80s most parts of Anglo-Canada didn't even have French schools like they do today.
Between a sick horse and getting ready for Christmas, I don't have the time to engage in the debate I would like but I would like to know how exactly does that make the Francophones different from anyone other non-Anglo, non-Francophone in Canada? What I heard, growing up, boiled down to just that. Multi-culturalism, which is so often derided on this forum, provided for many other cultures to feel confident within their own skin where they used to not feel that way. And since Canadians encompass a variety of ethnicities, what does it mean to "feel like an immigrant in your own country?"
Or is that the point - that Francophones and Anglophones want to be more special than everyone else? Because I don't see how that is going to work in a country of many ethnicities. At which point in time does a group have a legitimate claim to something?
Everyone makes decisions based on where to move or whether to move on a variety of factors and I have no issue with Quebeckers not wanting to move out of Quebec. Just saying. But who I am doesn't change if I switch languages.
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But I wouldn't be surprised to get an English Canadian who'd sincerely believe that francophones in, say, Alberta are better treated than anglophones in Quebec. Because Canada is officially bilingual and officially supportive of its francophone communities, while Quebec has in the past shown some hostility to its anglophone community.
