Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement? (bankruptcy, fence, law)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by begratto

You know, it isn't 1763 anymore. An Anglo moving to Saguenay might be met with indifference (just like a Québécois who would move to Red Deer...), but certainly not with hostility.

What's really fun is to extrapolate beyond the assumption that the two people will exhibit the same behaviour (francophone in Red Deer using English and anglophone in Saguenay using French).

Let's assume now that each tries to use their own language in their new home. How would they fare? How happy would each of them be?

Interesting tidbit: 15% of anglophones in Quebec City speak only English. But only 2% of francophones in Ottawa speak only French.

[netwit]

Originally Posted by BruSan

I, of course, will accede to your experience in duality.

I take issue with only that aspect that serves to describe one being much more usurious than the other, as surely anyone moving from one locale to another would judge being made to feel unwelcome solely due to heritage, rather than simply a lack of available official services, being far more egregious.

You have probably not been confronted with moving into a Quebec, predominantly separatist, enclave from anywhere else in Canada. I can assure you, that would be far more uncomfortable than coping with the lack of services en-francais. You would be very hard pressed to find any location in the ROC that would welcome you with open hostility due solely to you being from anywhere in Quebec.

I'm not wrong and I believe you know it.

That's how I see it.

[netwit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's a micro-phenomenon you are describing right there. There are a few communities like this but most are not. The vast majority are not.

But the micro-phenomenon shows what is possible if people want it that way.

I agree that the vast majority are not but it doesn't have to be that way. I lived through the period of ethnic, non-Anglo Canadians being ashamed of their last names and their accents, to their grandchildren enrolling in language schools and programs in an effort to learn the language that their grandparents had not passed on because they wanted their children to have opportunities.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by netwit

But the micro-phenomenon shows what is possible if people want it that way.

I agree that the vast majority are not but it doesn't have to be that way. .

Sure. But in the absence of effective and deliberate self-isolation, this only serves to delay a greater integration into wider society. Even most francophones outside Quebec face community erosion (sometimes significant) in spite of the fact that their language is official and they have kindergarten to post-secondary education options in French, generalized product labelling in their language, various media in their language and a good measure of public services (depending on where they live) in their language.

[BruSan]

Originally Posted by begratto

You know, it isn't 1763 anymore. An Anglo moving to Saguenay might be met with indifference (just like a Québécois who would move to Red Deer...), but certainly not with hostility.

Sorry to disagree with your analogy of it not being 1763 as it is not even 1967 anymore and there are any number of memories of being treated rudely and with open hostility while vising EXPO.

There are any number of memories of being cautioned by owners of business's along St,Denis and other streets, to not be heard speaking English during St, Jean Baptiste day celebrations, especially while a parade is going by, as late as the recent past decades.

I've heard and experienced them all first hand; perhaps YOUR memories differ; that's nice for you.

It's now 2014.....what has changed? I'm open to updates.

[BruSan]

Originally Posted by netwit

But the micro-phenomenon shows what is possible if people want it that way.

I agree that the vast majority are not but it doesn't have to be that way. I lived through the period of ethnic, non-Anglo Canadians being ashamed of their last names and their accents, to their grandchildren enrolling in language schools and programs in an effort to learn the language that their grandparents had not passed on because they wanted their children to have opportunities.

I can also remember those days when attending school with Hungarian escapees from Russian tyranny were admonished by their parents to not even be heard communicating with each other during school for fear of shame.

There were many immigrants arriving during those years from various European countries either due to post war or heightened tensions from the growing cold war era. I recall a lot of them sharing the common belief that they should abandon public use of language, traditional dress or other cultural markers.

The shame should have been on all of us for somehow giving them the overbearing feelings they must have had, to admonish their children thusly.

Probably a never to be repeated opportunity missed during a period when we should have all had enough of isolationistic displays of overt nationalism.

[hobbesdj]

Among all the talk of independence, what would an independent Québec look like? If Québec became independent it would have....

The 29th highest GDP in the world, about equal to South Africa.

The 27th highest GDP per capita, just behind Japan and the UK, just ahead of New Zealand and Finland.

The 99th largest population, with more people than of all the Scandinavian countries and Ireland.

The 20th largest country in the world, smaller than Mexico, and larger than Peru.

The second largest French speaking city in the world, Montréal.

The largest French speaking country in the world.

The northernmost capital city in the western hemisphere.

Over 2% of all the world's forests, and 3% of the world's fresh water reserves.

Over 85% of the world's maple syrup production.

[hobbesdj]

Originally Posted by BruSan

There are any number of memories of being cautioned by owners of business's along St,Denis and other streets, to not be heard speaking English during St, Jean Baptiste day celebrations, especially while a parade is going by, as late as the recent past decades.

I've heard and experienced them all first hand; perhaps YOUR memories differ; that's nice for you.

It's now 2014.....what has changed? I'm open to updates.

Once again, your fear of Francophones is exagerrated, overdramatic, and above all, unjustified. It is really difficult to even have a logical debate on the topic of Quebec when perspectives are so warped by fear and prejudice.

[UrbanLuis]

Originally Posted by hobbesdj

Among all the talk of independence, what would an independent Québec look like? If Québec became independent it would have....

The 29th highest GDP in the world, about equal to South Africa.

The 27th highest GDP per capita, just behind Japan and the UK, just ahead of New Zealand and Finland.

The 99th largest population, with more people than of all the Scandinavian countries and Ireland.

The second largest French speaking city in the world, Montréal.

]

All that is only if Montreal remains part of Quebec. if Canada is divisible, so is Quebec.

[BIMBAM]

Originally Posted by UrbanLuis

All that is only if Montreal remains part of Quebec. if Canada is divisible, so is Quebec.

Montreal is the birthplace of the separatist movement and is consistently more separatist in elections then either Quebec City or Gatineau. Moreover, UN jurisprudence on the subject does not support that notion so it's a bit of a federalist fantasy. Even if, say, the West Island could separate, it probably wouldn't do anything more then threaten as the people living there depend on the rest of the metro area economically, there is no political umbrella under which all of those municipalities could act together, none of them are majority native Anglophone despite the impression you might get, and at the end of the day people are very connected in a myriad of ways with the rest of the city and province. At the same time, the Cree have reconciled with the Quebec government so the situation with them would be pretty different from 1995. So all of this argument it moot. It may have been relevant in 1995 but if it happened this year? Nah, I don't believe it would go down that way in 2014.