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I don't believe the U.S is even close to being as racially mosaic and accepting as us. We have so many non white ethnicities that we easily live amongst and we all get along. No one gets alienated. It's honestly a beautiful thing. Ontario is becoming so ethnically and racially diverse it's unreal.
The United States has yet to get to this point. You may not be as "racist" as you were 60 years ago but your sure as Hell are not nearly as integrated as you would like to believe. I do not view America as a racist society but it has some things to overcome and attitudes to dispel before you guys reach our point.
I think the biggest difference between the American and Canadian immigrant experience is that Canadians immigrants seem to identify more strongly with the mother country and for longer..
I think this is something you wouldn't see as strongly in the U.S as you would in Canada..
I don't believe the U.S is even close to being as racially mosaic and accepting as us. We have so many non white ethnicities that we easily live amongst and we all get along. No one gets alienated. It's honestly a beautiful thing. Ontario is becoming so ethnically and racially diverse it's unreal.
The United States has yet to get to this point. You may not be as "racist" as you were 60 years ago but your sure as Hell are not nearly as integrated as you would like to believe. I do not view America as a racist society but it has some things to overcome and attitudes to dispel before you guys reach our point.
Put another way Canadiangirl.. I have a friend at work from Portugal.. He was born there and moved to Toronto when he was 10 with his family. Even though he is 30 years old and spent two times more of his life in Canada than in Portugal, he still identifies himself as Portuguese first.. He said he loves Canada and is grateful for his experience here, but he wouldn't die for it - he would however die for Portugal. If anything I think this strong connection with the homeland can actually negatively impact integration.. Even though we are extraordinarily diverse, i'm not sure I buy the integration part as much as in the U.S.. It is even said that we are a cultural mosaic as opposed to a cultural melting pot like as the case in the U.S. I think there is truth to this. Which is better is completely debateable but I think differences are underscored nonetheless.
I don't believe the U.S is even close to being as racially mosaic and accepting as us. We have so many non white ethnicities that we easily live amongst and we all get along. No one gets alienated. It's honestly a beautiful thing. Ontario is becoming so ethnically and racially diverse it's unreal.
The United States has yet to get to this point. You may not be as "racist" as you were 60 years ago but your sure as Hell are not nearly as integrated as you would like to believe. I do not view America as a racist society but it has some things to overcome and attitudes to dispel before you guys reach our point.
How on earth do know this? Have you ever lived in the US? Have you ever lived outside of Toronto, for that matter?
In all my years in the US, I've never found this to be true, and that is my honest interpretation. It's not even true in the South. If I had ever found this to be true, I wouldn't enjoy living here, and I certainly wouldn't raise my kids here.
The blanket statements you make are unbelievable. "We all get along. No one gets alienated." Really? You don't think there's any resentment/misunderstanding at all on the part of the "native" Canadian population toward immigrants, or vice versa?
As a child of immigrants, I can tell you that you are flat-out wrong. Though my parents are very fond of Canada, I know they have never felt entirely Canadian or entirely accepted, and they're WASPS. So, if that's how my parents have felt, how do you think some (or perhaps many) immigrants who are linguistic and/or visible minorities feel? And, to be fair, some of the most racist and intolerant people I've ever known have been minorities. On both sides of the border.
I avoid these debates because the thought of Canada splitting up pains me terribly. I am not making an argument for separation at all. That is why you will not see any 'strong and rational' argument. You don't hear about western separation because that is not how westerners are. If push came to shove, I am simply stating that in the event that Quebec ever were to separate, the west will go as well. I am not making any argument for it or against it.
As far as my 'take Ontario with you' comment, it was a partly jokey response to my question what Quebec separation was in it for Canada. There was a great deal in the thread about what separatists thought was in it for them. I wanted to know what was in it for Canada. The answer I got was that we'd be free of Quebec. Free to pursue our own destiny without the threat of separation hanging over us.
As far as the west is concerned, as far as a centralised government is concerned, without Quebec, and without the federal government at various times, taking away business from other provinces in part to placate Quebec, why exactly would the west decide to continue take their marching orders from Ottawa? Manitoba has no big stick. Alberta does. But Manitoba's orientation is west and for all the talk of 'distinct societies' there are other distinct societies and many westerners feel alienated and as though the east doesn't understand them or their issues. I am not saying whether that is right or wrong. I am just saying what it is in the west. And if that is the feeling in little old much maligned Manitoba, I can guarantee you it is stronger in Saskatchewan and Alberta.
And the idea put forth in that thread as though this would be a civil kind of divorce in which we'd all be friends and the rest of the country would just go on and Quebecers would have some kind of special privileges with the rest of Canada. I can't actually imagine that westerners, who have been feeling increasingly bitter towards Ottawa (which is in Ontario) over the years, would go along with that. I don't think there would be any business as usual, just without Quebec.
And that is my last word on the subject. And I wish you a Happy New Year.
I think your views about Ontario and its people are Crystal clear and are about as divisive as any i've read by any 'Canadian' on these forums..
All the best in the New Year as well.. Hopefully it will be one for you in which you gain a greater appreciation for other Canadians (particularly Ontarians who mostly aren't from Ottawa or connected to the political machine btw) just a bit more instead of marginalizing and ostracizing them which is essentially what you have done with your statements.
If anything I think this strong connection with the homeland can actually negatively impact integration.. Even though we are extraordinarily diverse, i'm not sure I buy the integration part as much as in the U.S.. It is even said that we are a cultural mosaic as opposed to a cultural melting pot like as the case in the U.S. I think there is truth to this. Which is better is completely debateable but I think differences are underscored nonetheless.
I don't entirely disagree with you, but I don't completely agree, either.
If I compare the immigrant experience of my own parents, aunts and uncles in Canada vs that of aunts and uncles who emigrated to the US, there is definitely a difference. A subtle one, but, yes a difference. But do Canadian immigrants feel more tied to the homeland because of official Canadian policy (I know this is what some Canadians LOVE to think), or do they feel they must retain ties to the homeland because they possibly feel less integrated with mainstream Canada? What is the causation?
I am very proud of my heritage, regardless of official Multiculturalism or the so-called Canadian Mosaic, OR the so-called American Melting pot. In Canada, I didn't need a government policy in place for me to feel more inclined to celebrate my cultural heritage. Why, how, and to what extent I celebrate my heritage is a highly personal thing, and none of anyone else's business, least of all a government's, thank you very much.
Last edited by newdixiegirl; 01-01-2015 at 04:24 PM..
We do say that Alberta is our most American province, for a reason. It wouldn't surprise me that you didn't pick up he was Canadian, not be because he didn't have any telling signs, but because you just didn't pick up on them. Another Canadian might have, but it may be more difficult than say someone from another province.
Canadians call Alberta "the most American province", but culturally speaking it couldn't be more false. Alberta is simply more conservative and as a result less fixated on indulging in the "not American" trend which is a pillar of the Liberal party. From accents to demeanor, Canadians from the plains (AB, MB, SK) are hands down among the most different from Americans, and certainly more different than the average British Columbian or Ontarian. English Canadians whether from BC, ON, or AB, rely on exagerrated differences to inflate a sense of nationalism and elevate what is a regional variation of American culture into a national culture.
Being totally honest these are the things that I think separate "us" from "them:
- A persons race is virtually irrelevant in Canada.
- less "severe" divide between rich and poor. A persons class isn't a big deal.
- We are growing increasingly apathetic to religion. South of the border it's another story. In Canada religion has nearly zero influence in politics like the U.K.
- A persons sexual orientation is no ones concern or business.
I've been to Canada several times. As a whole, I think Canada is more tolerant and egalitarian than the USA, but your generalizations seem a bit overblown.
I think your views about Ontario and its people are Crystal clear and are about as divisive as any i've read by any 'Canadian' on these forums..
All the best in the New Year as well.. Hopefully it will be one for you in which you gain a greater appreciation for other Canadians (particularly Ontarians who mostly aren't from Ottawa or connected to the political machine btw) just a bit more instead of marginalizing and ostracizing them which is essentially what you have done with your statements.
With all due respect, I think you're being undeservedly harsh with netwit.
As much as we from Ontario fail to understand that viewpoint (or even to realize that it exists to the extent that it does), she is only expressing her honest feelings. And her feelings are not at all uncommon in the west. On the contrary, I think they're the norm. Heck, compared to some views I've heard on both the east and west coasts of Canada (like those of my BC separatist former BIL), I think netwit's views sound pretty reasonable.
A good question to ask is, why do so many outside of Ontario feel this way? What is it about the socio political makeup of Canada that creates these intense feelings of estrangement among many in the "Hinterland" (an insulting term, if ever there was one) of Canada?
I don't entirely disagree with you, but I don't completely agree, either.
If I compare the immigrant experience of my own parents, aunts and uncles in Canada vs that of aunts and uncles who emigrated to the US, there is definitely a difference. A subtle one, but, yes a difference. But do Canadian immigrants feel more tied to the homeland because of official Canadian policy (I know this is what some Canadians LOVE to think), or do they feel they must retain ties to the homeland because they possibly feel less integrated with mainstream Canada? What is the causation?
I am very proud of my heritage, regardless of official Multiculturalism or the so-called Canadian Mosaic, OR the so-called American Melting pot. In Canada, I didn't need a government policy in place for me to feel more inclined to celebrate my cultural heritage. Why, how and to what extent I celebrate my heritage is a highly personal thing, and none of anyone else's business, least of all a government's, thank you very much.
You're not really providing anything here that really gets at causation either - which admittedly is not easy.. I mean you say you don't completely agree or disagree with me so I think that right there does show there are some differences.. Whether those are political, cultural, sociological or a blend of all three. Perhaps Canadians are just more low key and less in your face if you will about Canadian nationalism.. Perhaps its a bit of policy and other things.. I don't LOVE to highlight differences nor am I saying one is more superior to the other, or even that there are absolute line in the sand differences. You can't generalize these things on either side of the border but mildly I think there are some truths to that.. You've eluded to that yourself now haven't you..
Having said that, show me a U.S city that has people celebrating Spains success in quite that way.. If Italy won it would be the same strong demonstration of Italian F.O.B pride on the streets of Toronto..
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Canadian who didn't get just a little jumpy or irritated at the *aboot* stereotype. The joke is kind of stale don't Ya' think? And holds really no weight to how Canadians actually talk.
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