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Old 05-22-2016, 12:41 PM
 
Location: B.C., Canada
13,525 posts, read 12,315,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
I'm pretty sure I wrote: how will the millions of immigrants with a different set of values change the face of Canada?
Not exactly the same thing. What you said was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post

...... How will millions of new Canadians who practice domestic violence change the face of Canada?
Certainly there will be some (because of their different cultures) but I don't believe there will be millions of people who practise domestic violence coming into the country as new immigrants. Millions is an exaggeration. Those new immigrants who do practise domestic violence will not change the face of Canada.

They will learn soon enough that it isn't condoned in Canada and that they may face the consequences of Canada's justice system and be deported - without their families. They will change their tunes if they want to stay, or when their spouses or growing children learn about their rights in Canada and take steps to put an end to their domestic mistreatment and claim the human rights they're entitled to in Canada.

Those who have different sets of values (lets just say just for one example, gun nuts who want to bring all their handguns into Canada, or extreme religious fanatics as another example) - those kinds of people won't change the face of Canada either. They will either not come to Canada because their values are so much in conflict with Canadian values, or else if they want to stay in Canada they will have to change or modify their values in order to fit into Canadian society and be able to remain.

.
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Old 05-22-2016, 01:06 PM
 
7,370 posts, read 4,337,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
Not exactly the same thing. What you said was:



Certainly there will be some (because of their different cultures) but I don't believe there will be millions of people who practise domestic violence coming into the country as new immigrants. Millions is an exaggeration. Those new immigrants who do practise domestic violence will not change the face of Canada.

They will learn soon enough that it isn't condoned in Canada and that they may face the consequences of Canada's justice system and be deported - without their families. They will change their tunes if they want to stay, or when their spouses or growing children learn about their rights in Canada and take steps to put an end to their domestic mistreatment and claim the human rights they're entitled to in Canada.

Those who have different sets of values (lets just say just for one example, gun nuts who want to bring all their handguns into Canada, or extreme religious fanatics as another example) - those kinds of people won't change the face of Canada either. They will either not come to Canada because their values are so much in conflict with Canadian values, or else if they want to stay in Canada they will have to change or modify their values in order to fit into Canadian society and be able to remain.

.
For accuracy, I'll repost what I wrote just last night:

Canada has changed so much in the last few decades, and not altogether in better ways. Harper and Trudeau are in favour of opening up the borders to new immigrants. With that immigration comes different values. Harper presumably believed that the government could hold onto historic Canadian values, such as revealing the face when swearing an oath, regardless of immigration. He was wrong. New values introduced by new immigrants can change those values in an instant. Canadians have to roll with it, but I have to question what those values will look like with several million more new immigrants, most of which may be from primarily Muslim countries. How will the face of Canada change? Will European values be over ridden?

If Canada increases it's population with new immigrants, and changes her values, what country will Canada, the superpower, target with her might?
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Old 05-22-2016, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Beautiful British Columbia 🇨🇦
528 posts, read 407,662 times
Reputation: 938
Lieneke, when you say that the refugees have a different set of values, I'm not completely sure what you mean. Yes, different cultures do some things differently, but at the end of the day people from every part of the world generally want to do the right thing, and each region has its fair share of crazies.

While some Syrians commit domestic violence, there are people from Western countries who do the same. It's just that richer countries have more resources to combat problems like these. No one, whether Muslim, Christian, atheist, or whatever, likes violence.

I admire Canada's cultural mosaic and prefer it over America's melting pot. Different cultures bring different ways of thinking, and this enhances the community.

Of course, that certainly does not mean society should tolerate things like violence, religion being forced onto others, or terrorism, but refugees as a whole are no more violent than the rest of you. Violence is what they're running away from.
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Old 05-22-2016, 03:04 PM
 
7,370 posts, read 4,337,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon18 View Post
Lieneke, when you say that the refugees have a different set of values, I'm not completely sure what you mean. Yes, different cultures do some things differently, but at the end of the day people from every part of the world generally want to do the right thing, and each region has its fair share of crazies.

While some Syrians commit domestic violence, there are people from Western countries who do the same. It's just that richer countries have more resources to combat problems like these. No one, whether Muslim, Christian, atheist, or whatever, likes violence.

I admire Canada's cultural mosaic and prefer it over America's melting pot. Different cultures bring different ways of thinking, and this enhances the community.

Of course, that certainly does not mean society should tolerate things like violence, religion being forced onto others, or terrorism, but refugees as a whole are no more violent than the rest of you. Violence is what they're running away from.
I think everyone wants to do the right thing, but different cultures have different values.

I prefer Canada's multi-culturalism to a mosaic. I have come to understand "mosaic" as many cultures retaining the values of their own birth country and living side by side in Canada, and "multi-culturalism" as many cultural values blending with full integration of the first Canadian born generation. I prefer blended cultures to segregated cultures.

If Canada goes forward as a mosaic rather than multicultural country, Canada will experience the same serious problems that the mosaic has presented in Europe. I have noticed that new immigrants talk about mosaic, and first generation Canadians talk about multi-culturalism - which is what has historically occurred in Canada.

An example of a mosaic type of position is that everyone should be allowed to cover their faces when swearing an oath in Canada. I see that as a foreign value that was introduced by a foreigner as a condition of becoming a Canadian. I would prefer to see new immigrants accept Canada as it is today because they love the country as it is today, not because they prefer the values of their native country and want Canada to adopt those values.

Last edited by Lieneke; 05-22-2016 at 03:14 PM..
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Old 05-22-2016, 04:11 PM
 
3,700 posts, read 2,868,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon18 View Post

I admire Canada's cultural mosaic and prefer it over America's melting pot. Different cultures bring different ways of thinking, and this enhances the community.

On paper it may look that way but in reality the Canadian multiculturalism often really meant cultural ghettization, immigrants, on average, are much better integrated in the American society in Canada (personal observation) but they still retain their core cultural values.

I noticed much more "keeping on our own" in Canada than in the US.
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Old 05-22-2016, 04:34 PM
 
7,370 posts, read 4,337,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
On paper it may look that way but in reality the Canadian multiculturalism often really meant cultural ghettization, immigrants, on average, are much better integrated in the American society in Canada (personal observation) but they still retain their core cultural values.

I noticed much more "keeping on our own" in Canada than in the US.
Unfortunately, many new immigrants want to immediately connect with other people who originate from their same foreign country. This can result in an avoidance of learning Canadian languages, culture, and values. The sooner new immigrants learn about Canadian culture and adopt Canadian values, the more likely Canadians are to preserve their own value system and way of life.

Canada is not a dumping ground for people who experienced a poor quality of life in their native countries. It is a pristine land of opportunity and new immigrants should understand that being Canadian means adhering to values that preserve that opportunity. I personally have little tolerance for men who want their wives to cover themselves from head to toe, men who believe that they own their wife and children, or women who require their female children to cover their face in public. Those are values that have no place in Canada.

I would hope that several million new immigrants will not result in a people that want to use might to dominate other peoples, such as women.
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Old 05-22-2016, 04:59 PM
 
3,700 posts, read 2,868,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
Canada is not a dumping ground for people who experienced a poor quality of life in their native countries.
......beyond the rethoric actually it is (that does not mean or imply that it is not a beautiful country), it is one of the easiest western countries where to emigrate, definitely the easiest among the English speaking "big 3" (Australia, Canada and the US)
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Old 05-22-2016, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
17,532 posts, read 13,277,765 times
Reputation: 10960
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
On paper it may look that way but in reality the Canadian multiculturalism often really meant cultural ghettization, immigrants, on average, are much better integrated in the American society in Canada (personal observation) but they still retain their core cultural values.

I noticed much more "keeping on our own" in Canada than in the US.
BS

The US and Canada are rated almost the same, with the latest study I can find saying Canada ranks 6th and the US 9th.

Canada used to be in 3rd place, but dropped because some family reunification issues created by our former Con gov't.
We will probably rise again with the new direction that Trudeau has promised.

http://www.mipex.eu/canada

However, anything in the top 10 is good in my books.

But, you, just had to jump at the chance to bash Canada once again.
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Old 05-22-2016, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,704 posts, read 14,002,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
BS

The US and Canada are rated almost the same, with the latest study I can find saying Canada ranks 6th and the US 9th.

Canada used to be in 3rd place, but dropped because some family reunification issues created by our former Con gov't.
We will probably rise again with the new direction that Trudeau has promised.

Canada | MIPEX 2015

However, anything in the top 10 is good in my books.

But, you, just had to jump at the chance to bash Canada once again.
Good post Nat. Mipex is a good source and both Canada and the U.S score pretty highly though Canada has had better scores. As far as i'm concerned, Mipex has more credibility than 'my observation'
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Old 05-22-2016, 05:34 PM
 
7,370 posts, read 4,337,419 times
Reputation: 7675
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
......beyond the rethoric actually it is (that does not mean or imply that it is not a beautiful country), it is one of the easiest western countries where to emigrate, definitely the easiest among the English speaking "big 3" (Australia, Canada and the US)
Canada is not a dumping ground for people who experienced a poor quality of life in their native countries. Most people who arrived in Canada over the last 400 years came by choice because Canada is the country it is, not because they were running away from something. Europeans who are running away from somewhere, such as Russia, find it a lot easier to run to Germany than to Canada. Canada is a choice that takes extra effort after running away from something.

In this regard, Canada is very different from the United States. People in South America will run away and there's really only one choice: the United States. After running away from the native country and landing in the US, they have to make a choice, a decision, and a serious effort to arrive in Canada.

People who arrive at the airport are typically not "running away" from anything in their native country, they are very likely arriving on work visas.

Last edited by Lieneke; 05-22-2016 at 06:10 PM..
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