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You seem be believe in second hand stories to confirm your own bias.
The bible also says a lot of things that are not compatible with modern society. How to interpret the holy books depends on the people. Many Muslim countries aren't governed by Sharia law, which is the most extreme case. And if we strictly stick to the Bible, trust me, our countries won't be any better than Saudi Arabia. Bible gives enough reasons to kill or hate.
NO, Christianity as a region is no better than Islam. Both are largely based on our ignorance about the world. Christian countries tend to be more progressive and tolerant than Muslim countries today, not because the religious difference, but because people in general are more educated and do not believe in religion as much.
Do you remember in history when Spain was occupies by the Moors, other religions were largely tolerated? The Jews actually escaped to Spain in drives for safe haven because the Christians were persecuting them. So much for "Christianity is more tolerant than Islam". Christian countries are progressing much faster precisely because Christianity is becoming less and less relevant in daily lives.
Christians tend to follow the New Testament, not the old. And I realize that not all Muslim countries practice Sharia or have a very limited set of laws of Sharia that don't want to cut off hands or stone people, but how many from those countries are coming here as refugees? How many of the ones that do come from those countries cause any problems here? Not many. The ones that don't follow it tend to be Turkey, which has a tradition of separation of church and state, and most of the former Soviet bloc countries that tend to be more securilarized. They are not the ones causing problems.
This survey shows the countries where more people tend to favor the extreme parts of Sharia are in the Middle-East/North Africa region, the Palestinian territories, and Southeast Asia. Also quite a few in Malaysia and Indonesia.
That's today, not three hundred years ago.
I'm an agnostic, but even I can see that Christianity is better. Why did Christian nations become so educated and the Middle East/North African region remain so barbarous? They are the oldest civilizations on earth, and yet haven't advanced beyond their more tolerant time 10 centuries ago. Could it be the religions have some influence?
Last edited by katygirl68; 06-23-2016 at 05:45 PM..
OH pshaw with that nonsense; I live down there for almost 6 months every winter and have done since 2004 and have had more than one opportunity to acquire a handgun. What fantasy world do you live in?
I attended one gun show in Arizona where a purchase could have easily been made IN THE PARKING LOT and it was not a "sting" as the guy selling was a regular known to my friends. In Florida where I spend winters now, a straw purchase is as easy as offering $1k to any number of entities desperate for money.
Purchasing an illegally obtained firearm from a burglary or some other felony act is as simple as getting the word out and they'll come to you or a go between like flies to horse s***.
I have every idea of what I'm talking about. You've jumped the shark on this one Saturno. All those firearm related deaths down there are all done by legally obtained weapons are they? All 30,000 per year of them?
Nonsense?? I repeat my invitation, please cross the border and try to buy a firearm illegally from a legal owner....
My experience is exactly opposite to yours.....no one at a gun show parking lot is going to sell you a gun (especially a pistol) if you do not have at least a CCW
Go to the Seattle gun board and try to privately buy a firearm without CCW...good luck with that...
There is no shark to jump Brusan......someone can illegally sell you a firearm in US as easily as in Canada because "desperate" people, as you call them, do not follow rules and regulations...
Quote:
You're wasting your time with Saturno on this one, trust me I've tried. He was the one that INSISTED that obtaining a handgun legally in Canada was easy..." just a few more hoops to jump through " than the the USA ,is how I think he put it.
Even after posting links on restricted weapons from the RCMP site and other sources, including Chevy explaining our laws, he was still defiant.
He has a set of " beliefs " that no fact or facts will alter.
Oh, and all those murders, shootings etc in the US only happen in the bad part of town, with a certain couple of minorities. Don't mention elementary schools, theatres, colleges, etc. Also forget about the accidental shootings, especially the cute toddlers who shoot mommy with her cute little " protector " she carries in her purse.
.....I did waste even more time talking to you because you are too dense to understand what I meant so I gave up....by the way I did talk in person to a couple of Canadian gun collectors after our exchange and they were laughing hard at your suggestion that Canadian laws would magically prevent a crime....they said, verbatim, "sure we went through the bureaucratic hoops of getting our permits, as a matter of fact, right in this moment nobody is going to stop me from walking out, getting one of my pistols and kill someone...hey but they are Canadian gun owners, what do they know right??
Feel free to debate with numbers....I repeat, accidental gun deaths are 0.6% of the total (2010 CDC data source), kids are more likely to drown in a pool than being accidentally shot......last time I bother to reply to you....
Nonsense?? I repeat my invitation, please cross the border and try to buy a firearm illegally from a legal owner....
My experience is exactly opposite to yours.....no one at a gun show parking lot is going to sell you a gun (especially a pistol) if you do not have at least a CCW
Go to the Seattle gun board and try to privately buy a firearm without CCW...good luck with that...
There is no shark to jump Brusan......someone can illegally sell you a firearm in US as easily as in Canada because "desperate" people, as you call them, do not follow rules and regulations...
.....I did waste even more time talking to you because you are too dense to understand what I meant so I gave up....by the way I did talk in person to a couple of Canadian gun collectors after our exchange and they were laughing hard at your suggestion that Canadian laws would magically prevent a crime....they said, verbatim, "sure we went through the bureaucratic hoops of getting our permits, as a matter of fact, right in this moment nobody is going to stop me from walking out, getting one of my pistols and kill someone...hey but they are Canadian gun owners, what do they know right??
Feel free to debate with numbers....I repeat, accidental gun deaths are 0.6% of the total (2010 CDC data source), kids are more likely to drown in a pool than being accidentally shot......last time I bother to reply to you....
You've combined your response to include two different posters here Saturno. You can stop with the "dense" crappola.
I told you of my ability to purchase one in the parking lot of a gun show in AZ. Also did you just choose to ignore the "straw purchase" issue I mentioned?
Challenge one of your own "WILLING" to make such an illegal purchase and you'll see how easy it is as reported by EVERY single one of your MSM over the course of the last few years. I will not enter your country to break it's laws EVER so stop with that nonsense again. How dense do you have to be to disbelieve your own agencies and the facts of criminal endeavours in the U.S. There are a plethora of illegal firearms in the continental U.S. How can any sane person presume to argue otherwise? Given that situation how in heck can you maintain the meme of purchasing a weapon illegally as being a difficult process when purchasing one LEGALLY isn't even that difficult an endeavour.
I have never suggested "laws" prevent crime. Please find that post and quote link to it. I am of the camp that suggests you could at this point make all the laws you could possibly imagine and it won't make a hill of beans difference in the U.S. and have stated such before on here. Outright confiscation of arms at this point would only remove those registered firearms purchased legally by presumed innocent individuals.
That is my stated position.
Please sort through your response list and posters to see who the heck it is you're calling dense before you hit the submit button.
We really need to get off this stupid topic as it is apparent you're not changing your mind and I am sure as all get out not going to swing over to your suggestion that getting a firearm in the states, either illegally or legally, as being a difficult process.
I'm an agnostic, but even I can see that Christianity is better. Why did Christian nations become so educated and the Middle East/North African region remain so barbarous? They are the oldest civilizations on earth, and yet haven't advanced beyond their more tolerant time 10 centuries ago. Could it be the religions have some influence?
you seem to forget how the "Christian world" got rich and powerful in the first? Was it based on peace, mutual respect, freedom? The west is wealthier, of course they are more civilized, but don't pretend for a second that it is civilized BECASUE they are Christians and not Muslims.
you may not want to talk about 300 years as if it is only today that matters, but the past always matters.
The middle east couldn't advance because the west never allowed it too. Isn't that easy to understand? Without western forces messing around since 1918, do you think the Middle East would be what it is now?
Barbarous? I am not sure. Western forces are pretty barbarous in their overseas operations as far as I know. They just don't do it to their own citizens but what's the difference? If you are born in western countries, lucky for you, otherwise, your view would have been different.
you seem to forget how the "Christian world" got rich and powerful in the first? Was it based on peace, mutual respect, freedom? The west is wealthier, of course they are more civilized, but don't pretend for a second that it is civilized BECASUE they are Christians and not Muslims.
you may not want to talk about 300 years as if it is only today that matters, but the past always matters.
The middle east couldn't advance because the west never allowed it too. Isn't that easy to understand? Without western forces messing around since 1918, do you think the Middle East would be what it is now?
Barbarous? I am not sure. Western forces are pretty barbarous in their overseas operations as far as I know. They just don't do it to their own citizens but what's the difference? If you are born in western countries, lucky for you, otherwise, your view would have been different.
Yeah, tell that to the Ottoman Empire. What do you think was happening before 1918? And Mohammad himself was a conqueror. A lot of societies were expansionist, including the Muslim societies (many conquered peoples in those countries). I am sick of only Western nations getting the blame for this, and for slavery.
The Arab slave trade began earlier and lasted longer, and many of those countries still practice a form of slavery today.
They didn't advance as far as Western societies because they never had a reformation and an enlightenment. I am hopeful that we are starting to see their reformation now. Unfortunately, reformations are bloody and violent in the beginning. We shall see where this goes, but so far it seems like a regression in some areas.
And as for our forces being barbarous, we aren't. Ask the Afghani women who they would rather have near, an American soldier or the Taliban. If we still fought wars like we did in the 1940's, the war would have been over long ago and the body count would be much higher. It isn't because we don't do that anymore.
That doesn't mean that I think we should have invaded their countries, but it wasn't like we weren't attacked in the first place.
You've combined your response to include two different posters here Saturno. You can stop with the "dense" crappola.
I told you of my ability to purchase one in the parking lot of a gun show in AZ. Also did you just choose to ignore the "straw purchase" issue I mentioned?
Challenge one of your own "WILLING" to make such an illegal purchase and you'll see how easy it is as reported by EVERY single one of your MSM over the course of the last few years. I will not enter your country to break it's laws EVER so stop with that nonsense again. How dense do you have to be to disbelieve your own agencies and the facts of criminal endeavours in the U.S. There are a plethora of illegal firearms in the continental U.S. How can any sane person presume to argue otherwise? Given that situation how in heck can you maintain the meme of purchasing a weapon illegally as being a difficult process when purchasing one LEGALLY isn't even that difficult an endeavour.
I have never suggested "laws" prevent crime. Please find that post and quote link to it. I am of the camp that suggests you could at this point make all the laws you could possibly imagine and it won't make a hill of beans difference in the U.S. and have stated such before on here. Outright confiscation of arms at this point would only remove those registered firearms purchased legally by presumed innocent individuals.
That is my stated position.
Please sort through your response list and posters to see who the heck it is you're calling dense before you hit the submit button.
We really need to get off this stupid topic as it is apparent you're not changing your mind and I am sure as all get out not going to swing over to your suggestion that getting a firearm in the states, either illegally or legally, as being a difficult process.
Just few words....a straw purchase is a felony and can land you in the can for 10 years...
I do not need to believe or disbelieve agencies or MSM (actually there are often reasons to disbelieve MSM nowadays).....I believe my experience as gun collector and purchaser.
But we actually see (finally) some agreement between us......mentioning straw purchases and illegal firearms so we can all put this into the "illegal" big container.....by being illegal automatically means nobody is going to follow rules and regulation...by definition.
That said, I do support few tweaking of the current situation when it comes to buying guns in the US.....first of all actually reinforce and improve what we have already in place, meaning the universal NICS background check when you guy a firearms...meaning up to date databases and improved cross-agency scrutiny during the screening call.
I support an equally federal mandatory check when selling firearms privately, basically a NICS mandatory process between private citizens....also (and more importantly) improved controls and screening at dealer level (that is where the illegal firearms business really bites)
Finally a federal mandatory training requirement for CCW holders and federally recognized CCWs exactly like a driving license.
Just few words....a straw purchase is a felony and can land you in the can for 10 years...
I do not need to believe or disbelieve agencies or MSM (actually there are often reasons to disbelieve MSM nowadays).....I believe my experience as gun collector and purchaser.
But we actually see (finally) some agreement between us......mentioning straw purchases and illegal firearms so we can all put this into the "illegal" big container.....by being illegal automatically means nobody is going to follow rules and regulation...by definition.
That said, I do support few tweaking of the current situation when it comes to buying guns in the US.....first of all actually reinforce and improve what we have already in place, meaning the universal NICS background check when you guy a firearms...meaning up to date databases and improved cross-agency scrutiny during the screening call.
I support an equally federal mandatory check when selling firearms privately, basically a NICS mandatory process between private citizens....also (and more importantly) improved controls and screening at dealer level (that is where the illegal firearms business really bites)
Finally a federal mandatory training requirement for CCW holders and federally recognized CCWs exactly like a driving license.
That's it.
Well dang me if we're not on the same page! I felt the earth move;...... was it good for you?
I'm not Canadian (though I seriously would love to live there), and if it's not a problem, I'd like to give my two cents.
I have a dear friend who lives in Orlando who is lesbian. She had been to that club a number of times, and has also played there as a musician. Sadly, she knows one of the victims who is not expected to make it.
Some people want to turn this tragedy into an ISIS issue and make terrorism the problem. To me, the bigger issue is how accessible guns are in America. The problem isn't mental instability or political or religious extremism as much as it's the lax laws regarding gun possession. Of course, those who embrace a gun culture are going to disagree, and that's their right. I don't agree, and that's my right. When we're the only Nation in the world who gives just about anyone the opportunity to carry a gun and makes it all too easy, how can anyone wonder at the prevalence of shootings vs. other countries?
Gun control in this issue is the elephant in the room that some politicians simply don't want to consider or even address. Listen, there are always going to be mentally unstable people.. and there is always going to be terrorism. Why add fuel to the fire by making it all too easy for these type of people to get guns?..especially something like the military-style AR-15 rifle which has been repeatedly used in mass shootings?
The opinions of some Americans regarding this issue don't reflect the opinion of all Americans, obviously.. and I want to make that clear..because too often I see people generalizing and speaking for all of America.. or people from other country's assuming to know the heart and minds of all Americans on specific issues. This is simply my opinion.. however, it's an opinion I know I don't share alone.
Lastly, I just wanted to say that while I do love America, with each horrific shooting I feel less and less safe in this country. Something has got to change..and I think much tighter gun laws would be a start.
And that's my two cents.
And hello to my friends up North. You've a beautiful country!
As per a suggestion in the Condolences thread, I'm starting this thread to discuss Canadians' (and others) thoughts on the Orlando shooting.
To kick things off, I'm reminded of a message I got from a colleague earlier today. Paraphrased, it was "Is it terrorism? Is it hatred? The two are not mutually exclusive, but they can be." An interesting point, I thought: did the shooter do what he did because he was Muslim and thus, hated gays; or did he do what he did because he hated gays, and just happened to be Muslim? Which latter point caused me to wonder: what if the Westboro Baptist Church was behind this? Would it be terrorism then, or a hate crime? Or both?
Or was this guy simply a lone nut, like Charles Whitman or Brenda Ann Spencer; neither of whom were really motivated by anything, and who selected targets more for ease of killing than for any ideology?
So many questions. Let's discuss.
These mass shootings are almost never done by "lone nuts". There are almost always other people behind the so-called lone nut.
There are lots of inconsistencies with the official story told by the media:
I'm not Canadian (though I seriously would love to live there), and if it's not a problem, I'd like to give my two cents.
I have a dear friend who lives in Orlando who is lesbian. She had been to that club a number of times, and has also played there as a musician. Sadly, she knows one of the victims who is not expected to make it.
Some people want to turn this tragedy into an ISIS issue and make terrorism the problem. To me, the bigger issue is how accessible guns are in America. The problem isn't mental instability or political or religious extremism as much as it's the lax laws regarding gun possession. Of course, those who embrace a gun culture are going to disagree, and that's their right. I don't agree, and that's my right. When we're the only Nation in the world who gives just about anyone the opportunity to carry a gun and makes it all too easy, how can anyone wonder at the prevalence of shootings vs. other countries?
Gun control in this issue is the elephant in the room that some politicians simply don't want to consider or even address. Listen, there are always going to be mentally unstable people.. and there is always going to be terrorism. Why add fuel to the fire by making it all too easy for these type of people to get guns?..especially something like the military-style AR-15 rifle which has been repeatedly used in mass shootings?
The opinions of some Americans regarding this issue don't reflect the opinion of all Americans, obviously.. and I want to make that clear..because too often I see people generalizing and speaking for all of America.. or people from other country's assuming to know the heart and minds of all Americans on specific issues. This is simply my opinion.. however, it's an opinion I know I don't share alone.
Lastly, I just wanted to say that while I do love America, with each horrific shooting I feel less and less safe in this country. Something has got to change..and I think much tighter gun laws would be a start.
And that's my two cents.
And hello to my friends up North. You've a beautiful country!
I appreciate your opinion, but what new gun laws would have prevented any of these mass shootings? Omar Mateen would have still been able to get them because he was an armed security guard. There really is no easy answer, but if our esteemed government refuses to secure our borders or even notify an employer of an armed security guard that he might not be the best person working security considering his associations, then I don't want to have my own rights to self protection taken away. If a terrorist or a sicko wants to make the news for weeks by killing as many people as they can, they will find a way. The media perhaps could do their part by not constantly showing the shooters' mugs and going on about their manifestos, making it even more attractive to the next crazy.
I am not against some new gun control measures, such as confinement to mental hospitals being a part of the background check. I don't much like Internet sales either. If someone makes a sale on the Internet, they should have to go through a gun dealer as broker with background checks. I know neither would be popular among the NRA, but people selling arms really should have to see who they're selling to.
I found this interesting article about the continued insistence of our government to arm people around the world, while many of them propose to strip our rights away. It says a lot about a government that has armed Syrian rebels for years, prolonging the war and increasing the body count by thousands. If we had kept away from that area, maybe we wouldn't be having the troubles we are having today.
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..one American's perspective...
