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Old 06-14-2016, 03:12 AM
 
Location: Toronto
15,106 posts, read 15,737,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Except what does it make it if the shooter, as is being increasingly suggested in news reports, was in fact himself gay? Even if a self-hating gay? What is it called then?
Well why might he be self-hating. Do you think societal pressure/family pressures/religious pressures could play a role in that? This is the type of thing gays have to deal with all the time. A society and many families/friends/colleagues in it who simply don't accept a family member or don't accept a friend because they are different and because they don't live up to your expectations or your assumptions of what you think they should be. Of course, that isn't necessarily the whole story and certainly not everyone who goes through these pressures end up doing what he did, but if this story can do anything perhaps its to help a parent or friends or brother or sisters to love and accept their gay family member or friend. Put yourself in our shoes. Perhaps reminding straight people that gays/lesbians/bisexuals/trans and queers are people too, with feelings and are a part of society.

So yeah - love your gay sons/daughters parents! Don't play a role in developing a child that won't/can't accept himself because you don't. Accept your gay/lesbian or trans friends. Everyone plays a role in this - gays included as we aren't as inclusive of one another as we should be. How we treat one another matters every single day. Every person counts.

Will it prevent a tragedy like this from ever happening again - no, but love and acceptance can do a whole lot for a society.

Last edited by fusion2; 06-14-2016 at 03:44 AM..
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Old 06-14-2016, 04:36 AM
 
Location: War World!
3,226 posts, read 6,618,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
I don't think one gets to accuse him of both: homophobia AND religious extremism. It is too convenient.
We just don't know yet. Maybe it has nothing to do with either. The guy is just crazy.

He went into a GAY bar, shot up 103 gay people and spouted quotes about radical Islam. He was Muslim, alleged his allegiance to ISIS (reportedly) so yes, I think it's PERFECTLY fair he was homophobic, religious and extremely nuts like Islamic terrorist are and like Islam preaches to be.
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Old 06-14-2016, 04:40 AM
 
5,051 posts, read 3,551,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lital_The_Best View Post
He went into a GAY bar, shot up 103 gay people and spouted quotes about radical Islam. He was Muslim, alleged his allegiance to ISIS (reportedly) so yes, I think it's PERFECTLY fair he was homophobic, religious and extremely nuts like Islamic terrorist are and like Islam preaches to be.
Clearly he was a homophobe, his father even attests to that. IF that was due to religious beliefs or some combination of things we probably will never know.
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Old 06-14-2016, 05:39 AM
 
1,300 posts, read 1,036,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I don't hate to hear it I just don't fundamentally agree with your views on the matter. I think closing our borders to a whole group of individuals because of the actions of a very small minority will rob us of far more than what we will gain. Its such an insular and close minded approach! I'm also worried about the precedent, first muslims than who? Its a slippery slope. How about we deal with the people causing the problems through good intelligence and police work - its not 100 percent but it can be effective and at the same time doesn't eviscerate a fundamental part of what we are as Canadians - an open and diverse nation. Also, we aren't going to expand our economy by closing our borders. Immigrants pay taxes and immigrants create jobs.
And again I ask you, what makes Muslims so damn special that we and every other western nation NEEDS THEM?? What special skills or attributes or DNA do Muslims have that they've become like prized free agents that we have to have on our team or in this case in our countries? If you can't explain why we need to have Muslims in Canada then why do we have to keep bringing them in over other more productive, peaceful and much less violent non-Muslim immigrants?

I'm not saying no to immigrants, I'm saying no to Muslims and blacks for the simple reason that history has shown time and again that these two groups are the least likely to integrate properly and most likely to cause trouble, violence and crime. So why do we need to take these kinds of immigrants in for the sake of being 'inclusive' and not being 'racist', instead of doing the right thing and taking in immigrants that will do us little harm and will likely be productive and contribute to our country?

So again PLEASE ANSWER ME, why do we NEED Muslims in Canada or any western country over non-Muslim immigrants from other countries? Please answer that question.

Quote:
The current approach in the U.S isn't working so well. That is clear so perhaps a different approach is in order. I see the U.S as an evolving nation and people evolve. Don't be so quick to assume that a greater number of people in the country don't want gun control.. As for your comment about blacks - its the exact same approach you use against muslims. A small minority of each are causing problems so lets just broad brush stroke everyone in those groups. You don't see the injustice and unfairness of that?
It doesn't matter even if the majority of Americans want gun control. That doesn't change the fact that there are still hundreds of millions of firearms floating around all across the US that you will NEVER get rid of. They've let the gun issue grow out of control wayyy past the point of no return and at this point its just better to let everyone own and carry a gun than to try and get rid of guns which is impossible to do now.

And PLEASE stop saying only a 'small minority' of Muslims are violent and criminal when nearly every damn day there's some kind of violence, injury or death caused by radical Muslims somewhere in the world. Clearly there are millions of Muslims out there who have no other purpose in life other than to cause trouble, violence and death and they all believe in the same religion.

The only reason western nations aren't facing even more attacks and having more people killed and injured is because our intelligence and security forces are advanced and well trained and EVEN THEN we can't stop every single attack. If we had inferior defense forces like what Iraq or Pakistan have we'd be completely effed and facing many more devastating terror attacks in our countries right now. So please stop saying 'only a few' Muslims are causing problems in this world when countries around the world are spending untold billions, manpower and other resources every year to keep our nations and our people safe from Muslim scum of the earth terrorists.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
Reputation: 11550
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
However many of us are aware that we have had a "gun culture" for over 200 years, and only the last 10 have been a real problem..

I am not sure that it's true that only the past 10 years have been a problem. Gun violence (random or otherwise) has been a part of American life for a very long time. You had high-ranking "notables" gunning each other down in duels centuries ago.


As recently as the 70s and 80s, gun violence was out of control in most of the country's largest cities.


I believe that overall the rate of violent crime and gun crime is actually lower today than it was 30 or 40 years ago.


Look at how many murders there are in a given year in LA and NYC these days compared to the 70s and 80s.


Yes, these random mass shootings have increased alarmingly. But that doesn't take away from the fact that violent crime rates are probably going down.


It's just that 50 or 100 or 200 (or even more) gangbangers killed in drug deals gone bad in a smattering of individual incidents in cities across the country doesn't make headlines like 50 innocent all-American boys and girls getting gunned down when they're having fun.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post

1. Guns: Well this one is enshrined in our constitution and we are all brought up with guns and knowing our guaranteed freedom regarding guns. There is debate about this topic, especially involving assault weapons but overall most Americans are not willing to move much on this issue. This does not mean we are not horrified by the violence of the past 10 years or so. However many of us are aware that we have had a "gun culture" for over 200 years, and only the last 10 have been a real problem. There is something else wrong with our society that restricting a constitutional freedom will not fix. .

.
I keep hearing the constitutional argument on this (and also other issues here in Canada BTW) as if the constitution was handed down on tablets to a bearded guy on a mountain.


The constitution is by the people and for the people. It is an instrument of the people.


Not the other way around.


I know it's complicated to change (and it's complicated for a reason I realize), but it can and should be changed if necessary.


If I am not mistaken, the American constitution once had a stipulation that only white men who owned property were allowed to vote (or something like that)...
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:07 AM
 
213 posts, read 226,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
First of a couple of posts on this.


Yes, it IS a gun control issue regardless of how many ways certain people want to spin it.


This guy did have a permit to buy anything he wanted but should he have had one (even if required for his job) if he had been on an FBI watch list? And he also exhibited erratic behaviour according to people in his entourage.


The lack of proper checks and balances on guns, who buys them, and how powerful they can be, and how certain aspects of a person's background are not linked to the ability to purchase guns... all issues relevant to this tragedy.
I agree 1 million %. But this is America, where some wacko redneck's right to own an arsenal is more important than the rights of everyone else to live in safety.


I hate this country.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
Reputation: 11550
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
is something else wrong with our society that restricting a constitutional freedom will not fix. First there are so many guns already here that you will never get rid of enough of them to stop the crazies, and secondly the crazies ALWAYs find a way to do their crazy things.
There is no such thing as zero risk. Anders Breivik killed more than 70 young people in the progressive paradise that is Norway, where there is gun control.


But none of this should be an excuse for doing nothing.


The Ottawa shooter Michael Zehaf-Bibeau could potentially have done a lot more damage had he somehow gotten his hands on something more powerful than an hunting rifle. So such things can be a question of "access".


Just because some people do commit murder it does not mean laws against murder are useless.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:16 AM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,377,500 times
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This thread has progressed naturally to center on the firearms as they most often do even over in the other boards.

Americans themselves are conflicted with the pitfalls of this conundrum becoming ever more obvious.

Max has made two statements that I think I've come to realize are the crux of the issue regardless of what your position is vis-à-vis private ownership of firearms:

"At this point, gun control in the US is POINTLESS. There's literally hundreds of millions of guns on the streets of America and it will be impossible to get rid of them all. Right now I think the best thing to do is simply let anyone who wants a gun to get one. Many Americans often say that arming themselves is the best way to keep themselves safe and maybe for them that's pretty much the only solution to things."

And again:

"It doesn't matter even if the majority of Americans want gun control. That doesn't change the fact that there are still hundreds of millions of firearms floating around all across the US that you will NEVER get rid of. They've let the gun issue grow out of control wayyy past the point of no return and at this point its just better to let everyone own and carry a gun than to try and get rid of guns which is impossible to do now."


In speaking with American friends while at a get-together or enjoying an after round 19th hole and this topic invariably comes up as the result of yet another shooting, this is usually where the discussion takes that turn to look at the problem as it exists right now and not what "could have", "should have" or what the 2nd was actually intended to say versus what it does say.

Everyone, and by everyone I daresay even the avid military firearm collector who delights in letting off 30 round rips down range, is flummoxed as to how one would go about convincing a populace that has been weaned on the 2nd amendment embodying the visual and tactile example of most, if not all of their freedoms.

The legal American firearms owners that I personally know cover a broad spectrum of folks. Most are retired from all manner of professions and careers. None of them are what I would refer to as rigid or immovable given logic but all are united in that as a result of a variety of reasons they have taken up the ownership of specifically handguns. A significant number of them have done so because they felt there was a reasonably apparent rationale for having a firearm in the house or immediate vicinity if not actually on their person.

No one is immune from this thinking. Even Canadians are now experiencing an uptick of gang related shootings in major cities and yes those are made more relevant to this issue because there are so many manufactures, buyers and criminals in the U.S. providing them to the criminal element in Canada. If this trend continues to worsen one could almost predict our national thinking will change so as to either give police the powers of "profiling" or simple membership in gangs being cause for harassment.........in other words; a weakening of our freedoms and rights.

It matters little if this fellow was a conflicted and angry homophobe struggling with his inner gay identity and indoctrinated by a very rabid, anti-gay, anti-western father who nevertheless is living the life of an urban dweller complete with a ranch bungalow full of furniture while wearing the suits with the silk tie. Those are the things of everyday life in north America.

How does the U.S. now go about restricting firearms from being obtained by any one of a long list of malcontents without further adding to the rampant and ever growing siege mentality of it's citizens? That is the problem in a nutshell.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
Reputation: 11550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slate Moonstone View Post
I agree 1 million %. But this is America, where some wacko redneck's right to own an arsenal is more important than the rights of everyone else to live in safety.


I hate this country.
Some of us are aware that there are tens of millions of Americans like you who really do want to change things for the better.


Being outside the country there is usually not much we can do concretely.


Rest assured though that there are hundreds of millions of people around the world who are on your side.
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