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I had an interesting conversation with an acquaintance of mine up in Vancouver over the weekend. It was my first chance to speak with him one-on-one, and an hour and a half later, we had solved ALL the world's problems.
Seriously, though, he's the type of guy who's not great in large groups, but terrific one-on-one. Part of our conversation had to do with US politics, Canadian politics, the inter-dependency of the economies, and all of that "fluffy stuff".
The question posed in this thread is in the title, and would be, for me, an interesting glimpse into how others feel on this issue.
I'm not quite sure how *I* feel on this particular issue at the moment, but, he made the distinction between, generally, Canadians as "nationalistic" (read: good pride in country) and Americans as "patriotic" (read: crazy fanatics). I had to press him on this because he said, in passing, that he was amazed at how Americans were so "into being American". *HALT* I've never met a group with *more* pride in their country than the Canadians that I've met in BC.
So, with that being said, the question remains. I'm very interested in hearing what other Canadians, and people, like me, who though not Canadian, do see these things, have to say on the subject. This is purely for my own edification, and I assure you all, even though this is a "touchy subject", it *can* remain civil.
The majority of Canadians I've met in the Toronto area aren't really "into being Canadian," yet most are satisfied living here, or at least accepting of where we are. The overall feeling I get is most people believe where we live is not exciting, but at least it's a decent place.
I've met a few very patriotic Canadians but they are a rare breed. However, a significant number of people are what I'd call "quietly pleased with being Canadian." Seeing a Canadian flag waving in someone's yard is rare. However I have seen quite a few people with Canadian themed tattoos.
The majority of Canadians I've met in the Toronto area aren't really "into being Canadian," yet most are satisfied living here, or at least accepting of where we are. The overall feeling I get is most people believe where we live is not exciting, but at least it's a decent place.
That is SO interesting to me, because I've seen quite a different attitude where I've been spending time. "Quietly patriotic/nationalistic", isn't even close to a phrase that I would use to describe it.
Within Canada we are quitely pleased with being Canadian. Most sporting events you go to where you sing the national anthem the people usually are looking down at their feet and singing quitely under their breath. We are happy and proud to be Canadian, but don't have the urge to show it to everyone else.
That being said, when Canadians travel outside of Canada you will see a lot more of their Canadian pride. I have travelled to over 50 countries and find that we are excited to share our country with others since most people have a limited knowledge of Canada. And (don't take any offense) but Canadians do not want to be mistaken as Americans. No different than Americans being mistaken for Canadians, or New Zealanders being mistaken for Australians. In my experience I think Canadians have a urge to educate people on our country when they are travelling.
We are happy and proud to be Canadian, but don't have the urge to show it to everyone else.
*That's* the crux of the conversation that I had with my acquaintance the other day.
Of course, I'm the outsider coming in with all of this and people respond accordingly, but, honestly, from the first night that I spent in Vancouver, I've had this "defensive posture" when it comes to my nationality. It's interesting, at least to me, that I've come to appreciate my country even MORE since I've been spending more time in Canada.
The "urge to show everyone else"? With that one, I beg to differ. *Especially* since the whole hype has been on about the 2010 games in Vancouver, this IS what people speak about. And, in the same breath, it's "look how much better we're doing than Salt Lake" (or Turino, or whatever predecessors there are).
I spend time in Canada as a "citizen of the world". Of course, I travel with my US passport, but I *do* enjoy blowing people's minds when they find out I'm a native New Yorker (especially now, since I've started to acquire the Canuck accent. ). And, this is where my question ultimately comes from. Like you, when I travel, I'll talk someone's ear off about my country. But, by the same token, I'm not given that opportunity many times, unless it's in the context of defending it.
And, *there* is where I see the hypocrisy. (And, I truly *do* use that word in its nicest connotation in this context.)
To me, what this guy said to me was an issue of semantics, more than anything else. But, "pride in country" is an interesting issue, that's for sure.
I think that Canadians are intensely patriotic. Tend to be fairly quiet about it, but have fits and outbursts. For examples see the IAm Rant, and Olympic hockey games.
What Canadians (and most other nations) seem to dislike about American Patriotism isn't patriotism per se, but more Jingoism.
Patriotism - devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.
Jingoism - Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism.
Jingoism falls under the "My country, right or wrong" and the ever popular "If you don't like it here, get the (insert colourful adjective here) out."
Canadians are very proud of their country, but are not as often victims to blind patriotism, and are well aware of their shortcomings and place in the world.
I think that Canadians are intensely patriotic. Tend to be fairly quiet about it, but have fits and outbursts. For examples see the IAm Rant, and Olympic hockey games.
What Canadians (and most other nations) seem to dislike about American Patriotism isn't patriotism per se, but more Jingoism.
Patriotism - devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.
Jingoism - Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism.
Jingoism falls under the "My country, right or wrong" and the ever popular "If you don't like it here, get the (insert colourful adjective here) out."
Canadians are very proud of their country, but are not as often victims to blind patriotism, and are well aware of their shortcomings and place in the world.
I find your definitions quite accurate with the Die Hard Americans. I'm not a Flag waver of any country on earth. I find that almost every country has it's own brand of Public Relations Propaganda , especially those in the European Union.
However , after these coming elections , look for the USA to move towards a more Socialist viewpoint. I don't think anything can stop it. I know the European countries want more of a United Nations sovereignty and I think that will happen. Will it improve conditions here on planet Earth ? Not a chance. But the world keeps changing and with the changes , nothing ever improves. It just keeps spiraling down hill , in more ways than one.
Well so far Vancouver is doing better than Salt Lake or Turino. The building of facilities is either on time or well ahead of the games. And so far, knock wood, there doesn't appear to be any corruption scandals looming. The biggest discussion is whether or not the marmot should have a stronger presence as a mascot.
And kuddos to you mikeyyc. You've hit the nail on the head with your post regarding patriotism and jingoism.
As a kid, I got the impression that most Canadians were almost-embarrased of their country.
For example, for the first 2 years of my memory I'd never even heard of a country called "Canada", but I had heard of China, Italy, Spain, maybe Mexico, France, England and of course the U.S.A. (I thought we were Americans too)
Well so far Vancouver is doing better than Salt Lake or Turino. The building of facilities is either on time or well ahead of the games. And so far, knock wood, there doesn't appear to be any corruption scandals looming. The biggest discussion is whether or not the marmot should have a stronger presence as a mascot.
I never denied that they were. It's just *hearing* about it, ad nauseum. There always seems to be this need to "compare" what Canada does to the rest of the world. Which, in itself, is fine, it's just that when people aver that they're "not patriotic"...
Maybe it does have to do with what people have said here, and what I've heard from other Canadians. For a long time, Canada was just, erm, "there" (for lack of a better word). I have heard stories from people in their 40s and 50s who learned more about US history than Canadian history in school. That to me is a tragedy. To know more about a foreign country's history, geography, politics, etc than your own?
I suppose also since Canada has made such a drastic economic turnaround in the past 10 years, and has not been the obnoxious world citizen that the US has been, there's more of a desire to take pride in what's been accomplished. I understand all of this, and I *do* respect it. Like I said, my only real beef is when Canadians INSIST that they're not patriotic. There's something to be said for calling a spade a spade, and admitting to something that really, at the end of the day, isn't all that bad.
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