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If I may say so, this is Canadian relativism at its finest! All girls are equally pretty, and all downtowns are equally great.
So someone who likes to have access to free parking will think that Houston's downtown is better than Manhattan, and he'll be right?
No not at all! Montreal and Toronto DT cores are more 'even' than Houston or NYC or Toronto/Montreal and NYC for that matter. No relativism there at all.. You yourself said that Toronto and Montreal DT cores are pretty much on an even keel all said. I'd largely agree. So yes, I think in this matchup you do need to get down to some specifics. If the OP matched Montreal and Edmonton or Toronto and Calgary there would be zero relativism and the answers much clearer.
If you are talking about which is larger in population and scale DT T.O vs DT Montreal, well clearly that would be DT Toronto (and this will become way more pronounced in the next 10 years in DT T.O's favour). Right now Downtown Toronto is about double the population of D.T Montreal. Unless something changes drastically I can see this tripling and quadrupling in T.O favour over the next few decades... BUT - Montreal has a lot of qualities to its core that Toronto doesn't and vice versa... In this case, specifics matter and yes, in this case both girls are very pretty or both guys are pretty smoking hot. DT Toronto is just taller but goes to bed a bit earlier..
Anyway, I kind of prefer a bit of fair and objective thought and rationale vs the C V C slaughterfest between U.S cities in these forums. Often there is no middle ground or often, even far less urban cities have their proponents extolling the superiority over far more impressive, established and urban cities.
It would be nice if you would provide your definition of better and best. Better for who in what ways?
.
let's not resort to the "everything is subjective" game.
In terms of best downtowns, the standard is relatively clear: whoever provides the most choices an varieties win the game. So a small downtown will not win, although some people may prefer it.
A good downtown would have
A lot of shopping from cheap to the very high end.
Urban entertainment amenties from a great thetre and opera scene to bowling and badminton
Nice public squares for people to gather and relax and convenient public transport
A wonderful restaurant scene
Decent art offering, such as good museums and galleries.
Yes, parks and gardens
And it needs to be alive for the longest time possible. A downtown that shuts down at 10:30pm with very few business open is not a great downtown.
It is not an issue of "I don't care" about this and that, it is about the choices available to people with different needs. If one doesn't need clubs to be open at 2am, he can go home and rest, but there are people who think it is important.
Exluding Toronto and Montreal, what makes Canadian downtowns more livelier/vibrant than American downtowns?
I am not sure IF Canadian downtowns are better, but I would use the attractiveness as a place to LIVE as a criterion.
If few people want to live downtown, then it is not a good downtown. If very few people live downtown, then it is hardly a downtown, it is just a CBD.
That being said, I am not sure if Canadian downtowns are better, including Toronto and Montreal. The US does have many deserted downtowns, but they also have many highly desirable ones, such as San Fran, Boston, not to mention New York. In Canada, it is not like Hamilton, Edmonton or Ottawa have fantastic downtowns either.
No not at all! Montreal and Toronto DT cores are more 'even' than Houston or NYC or Toronto/Montreal and NYC for that matter. No relativism there at all.. You yourself said that Toronto and Montreal DT cores are pretty much on an even keel all said. I'd largely agree. So yes, I think in this matchup you do need to get down to some specifics. If the OP matched Montreal and Edmonton or Toronto and Calgary there would be zero relativism and the answers much clearer.
If you are talking about which is larger in population and scale DT T.O vs DT Montreal, well clearly that would be DT Toronto (and this will become way more pronounced in the next 10 years in DT T.O's favour). Right now Downtown Toronto is about double the population of D.T Montreal. Unless something changes drastically I can see this tripling and quadrupling in T.O favour over the next few decades... BUT - Montreal has a lot of qualities to its core that Toronto doesn't and vice versa... In this case, specifics matter and yes, in this case both girls are very pretty or both guys are pretty smoking hot. DT Toronto is just taller but goes to bed a bit earlier..
Anyway, I kind of prefer a bit of fair and objective thought and rationale vs the C V C slaughterfest between U.S cities in these forums. Often there is no middle ground or often, even far less urban cities have their proponents extolling the superiority over far more impressive, established and urban cities.
All quite true. I am very excited by the population inflow. Imagine half a million people live downtown, which is hardly 10sq km.
I think the fatal weakness of downtown Toronto is the architecture. We just have horrible buildings. The ones on Yonge st and Queen st are outright embarassing. They are like ugly ducklings compared with Rue Ste. Catherine. Yes, there might be interesting business inside, but from the outside they are mostly hideous. Montreal in comparison, wins easily. And we all know all these 45s glass towers will not make downtown prettier either.
Downtown Toronto may win in terms of vibrancy and population, both of which are important, but unfortunately it will never exude charm and elegance, and there is nothing we can do.
All quite true. I am very excited by the population inflow. Imagine half a million people live downtown, which is hardly 10sq km.
I think the fatal weakness of downtown Toronto is the architecture. We just have horrible buildings. The ones on Yonge st and Queen st are outright embarassing. They are like ugly ducklings compared with Rue Ste. Catherine. Yes, there might be interesting business inside, but from the outside they are mostly hideous. Montreal in comparison, wins easily. And we all know all these 45s glass towers will not make downtown prettier either.
Downtown Toronto may win in terms of vibrancy and population, both of which are important, but unfortunately it will never exude charm and elegance, and there is nothing we can do.
I was waiting for this shoe to drop lol. Its almost like clockwork. I'll be clear, I do agree Montreal and even other larger cities in the U.S have better general Pre WWII architecture. This is actually one of the reasons why I would put DT Montreal on a more even keel with DT Toronto even though DT Toronto has way more people. These cities you mention however, Boston, Philly, Chicago, NYC (obviously) were bigger and more important cities than Toronto Pre WWII - so that is why their Pre WWII architecture is better and more grand. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Pre-WW2, Toronto was the second city in Canada and Canada at the time wasn't really a big country population wise either. They aren't going to build Budapest type palaces in an industrial second city in 1889 Canada. The money at the time, was in Montreal! When Philly was the capital of the U.S, Toronto had a few log cabins. Look at what the oldest buiding in Toronto is - Scadding log cabin built circa 1794 and you'll get your answer. You need to know the history of the city to understand why it doesn't have the Pre WWII architecture of other larger at the time N.A cities.
All said, you are being extraordinarily too dismissive of Toronto's Pre WWII architecture and too over the top with your depiction of 'embarrassment' about Toronto's architecture in general. Why would you be embarrassed about Old City Hall, The Provincial Legislative Building, Union Station, The Royal York, the Neo-gothic architecture of the U of T, The annex style housing in Yorkville or the general Bay and Gable Vic among many others - what the heck is embarrassing or hideous about those. The answer is nothing because they aren't embarrassing and they aren't hideous. I'm almost embarrassed that you are so embarrassed! We'll always disagree about that but I've chalked it up to it just being you as opposed to a major flaw of Toronto anything. You have what you like - I get that but don't assume everyone appreciates or needs what you need.
As for modern construction - yes, glass condo's are the order of the day during the last construction and ongoing boom. They bring in people and density. Some of the buildings are good some not but people and density general make a city better and bring in critical mass. Calling the growth of Toronto or the architecture of DT Toronto or Toronto in general a 'fatal' weakness just again shows how over the top your comments are. Its almost your 'fatal' weakness for not recognizing this but what can I say, its your opinion and I disagree with it.
I don't think you realize the cred of the some of the modern architecture that has been built in DT Toronto. As time goes by, they will be increasingly recognized because few cities have a collection of Libeskind, Stone, I.M PEI, Van Der Rohe, Calavatra, Gehry, Alsop and Calavatra. Look up these guys, they are considered architects some of the most impressive architects in the last 60 years (shocking coinciding with Toronto boom) and they are all in DT Toronto. I know this means little to you, but it is what it is and no other city in Canada has such examples in its core or in such numbers.
As for DT Toronto never exuding 'charm' or 'elegance' - Bangkok doesn't exude elegance really at all lol - it doesn't mean it isn't an exciting vibrant place. I don't know if people are looking for 'elegance' as a number one criteria for a bustling and growing DT core anyway. Charm well, that is subjective. I think Toronto and DT Toronto in general has its own charms but i'm ok if you don't think that. As I said though, don't just assume everyone needs or appreciates what you need or appreciate. Let me ask you, would you trade in Toronto's and particularly DT Toronto's strong growth with lacklustre or medium growth in exchange for more charming and elegant architecture?
I've been to all four cities and that's the rank I give them, if you don't agree, that's fine, but Vancouver is below Montreal and Toronto, and Calgary is way below Vancouver!
let's not resort to the "everything is subjective" game.
In terms of best downtowns, the standard is relatively clear: whoever provides the most choices an varieties win the game. So a small downtown will not win, although some people may prefer it.
A good downtown would have
A lot of shopping from cheap to the very high end.
Urban entertainment amenties from a great thetre and opera scene to bowling and badminton
Nice public squares for people to gather and relax and convenient public transport
A wonderful restaurant scene
Decent art offering, such as good museums and galleries.
Yes, parks and gardens
And it needs to be alive for the longest time possible. A downtown that shuts down at 10:30pm with very few business open is not a great downtown.
It is not an issue of "I don't care" about this and that, it is about the choices available to people with different needs. If one doesn't need clubs to be open at 2am, he can go home and rest, but there are people who think it is important.
+1.
Everyone has their own personal likes and dislikes when it comes to a downtown, but there are certain cities that capture the vibe of being "All things to all people" more than others. Those are the ones that stand out as having the best Downtowns. Toronto and Montreal stand out as the best in Canada for this reason.
What is best though.. Is it best French Canadian cuisine? Is it biggest and tallest? Is it best in terms of what is closest to Nature? Each of these DT cores offer their own 'best' depending on what we are talking about and what turns someone on. Other than sentiment or bias, i'm not sure how one could vote based on the question.. I personally haven't been to Calgary so would abstain from commenting on that city. I think I could reasonably infer that it probably has the most tame DT of the bunch but I also know after Toronto, the Calgary CBD is the largest in Canada. So I guess if skylines and large office towers make for a best DT Calgary would be up there. The others I have been to and I could vote for each of them as best depending on what the details of best are...
Calgary's downtown is very clean. It has some nice buildings. Some good restaurants and a wonderful preserved old Calgary street, Stephen Ave. Also some really beautiful parks.
Calgary just doesn't have enough people living downtown and seems a bit clinical.
I've been to all four cities and that's the rank I give them, if you don't agree, that's fine, but Vancouver is below Montreal and Toronto, and Calgary is way below Vancouver!
My mind was on vacation yesterday. I read it backwards
Calgary's downtown is very clean. It has some nice buildings. Some good restaurants and a wonderful preserved old Calgary street, Stephen Ave. Also some really beautiful parks.
Calgary just doesn't have enough people living downtown and seems a bit clinical.
I think Calgary has LOADS of potential! For a city of only 1.5 million in its metro it has a kick butt muscular skyline and the growth over the last decade has been incredible. I really hope regardless what happens in the Oil Industry that the resourcefulness of Calgarians and Albertans will allow them to continue to thrive. Edmonton is also one to watch and they are currently building the tallest skyscraper in Canada outside Toronto.
These cities may not have the history or architecture of eastern cities, but they are growing in the here and now so the present and future is what is important.
Nice pics btw - Stephen avenue looks pretty mint actually! I always enjoy looking at Calgary and I think as time goes by, its DT core will start to reflect its growing prominence across the board.
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