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Everyone has their own personal likes and dislikes when it comes to a downtown, but there are certain cities that capture the vibe of being "All things to all people" more than others. Those are the ones that stand out as having the best Downtowns. Toronto and Montreal stand out as the best in Canada for this reason.
It'll be interesting to see how Toronto ends up managing having a half a million people in its DT core. I think it will definitely have all the 'amenities' of such a massive core, but I do think it needs to shed some rather conservative remnants of the past when it comes to early last call times. In Europe/Asia/S.A the party is really just getting started when we are winding down so to speak. Obviously this is cultural, but I hope that with all this constant stream of Foreign born people coming in that they will rub some of the more exciting elements from their cultures off on the city. The city does not now nor will not belong to the past, it belongs to the present and the future. That means it is up to them to make the changes - strength in numbers. There is nothing stopping them and in 20 years, Toronto will be 67 percent foreign born - they won't be able to blame boring anglo wasps for the lack of late night energy in the city anymore!
All said, being away from living in the DT core for almost 3 years, I am continually impressed by how much busier things are getting. Its really starting to fill in nicely.
I was waiting for this shoe to drop lol. Its almost like clockwork. I'll be clear, I do agree Montreal and even other larger cities in the U.S have better general Pre WWII architecture. This is actually one of the reasons why I would put DT Montreal on a more even keel with DT Toronto even though DT Toronto has way more people. These cities you mention however, Boston, Philly, Chicago, NYC (obviously) were bigger and more important cities than Toronto Pre WWII - so that is why their Pre WWII architecture is better and more grand. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Pre-WW2, Toronto was the second city in Canada and Canada at the time wasn't really a big country population wise either. They aren't going to build Budapest type palaces in an industrial second city in 1889 Canada. The money at the time, was in Montreal! When Philly was the capital of the U.S, Toronto had a few log cabins. Look at what the oldest buiding in Toronto is - Scadding log cabin built circa 1794 and you'll get your answer. You need to know the history of the city to understand why it doesn't have the Pre WWII architecture of other larger at the time N.A cities.
All said, you are being extraordinarily too dismissive of Toronto's Pre WWII architecture and too over the top with your depiction of 'embarrassment' about Toronto's architecture in general. Why would you be embarrassed about Old City Hall, The Provincial Legislative Building, Union Station, The Royal York, the Neo-gothic architecture of the U of T, The annex style housing in Yorkville or the general Bay and Gable Vic among many others - what the heck is embarrassing or hideous about those. The answer is nothing because they aren't embarrassing and they aren't hideous. I'm almost embarrassed that you are so embarrassed! We'll always disagree about that but I've chalked it up to it just being you as opposed to a major flaw of Toronto anything. You have what you like - I get that but don't assume everyone appreciates or needs what you need.
I am not being dismissive. I am being realistic. Toronto of course has quite some nice buildings, even world class achitecture, but they are far and in between. The thing is, a city can never be beautiful solely due to a few world class achitecture. It is the regular buildings that form the main stock of the city core, their design and how they fit each other and the street that gives people the main impression of whether a city is beautiful or not. And I am afraid Toronto is not a winner in this game.
And this is made worse by the fact that those pretty bay and gable houses are primarily residential hidden on a few quiet streets few people ever go unless they live there, unless in cities like Boston, where a lot of them are commerical and therefore have higher visibility. Toronto's main streets that both locals and travelers often see, are UGLY, let it be Yonge or Dundas or Queen, not to mention Jarvis etc which are outright rundown. The tiny part south of Queen is better, like in the examples you mentioned, but they unfortunately are not enough to change the overall impression.
Additionally, I would say unfortunately the majority of Toronto's historical beautiful buildings are two story homes here and there. There is nothing wrong with them per se but they simply aren't the expectation of a big metropolis with 6-7 million people. Montreal's majestic stone/marble buildings and the midrise rowhouses are what people expect. Even downtown Los Angeles' architecture beats downtown Toronto easily. You can't seriously say my big city is beautiful because we have so many two story homes that are primarily residential outside the city centre. Let's be honest, that's the kind of pride much smaller and less important cities hold. Cleveland has plenty of homes like that. So does Columbus Ohio. And maybe Charlston, SC. The fact we are proud of our two story victorian houses as if they were a big deal is embarassing because they are not rare in North American cities. Not to mention the fact that those houses that used as retail on Queen and Yonge and elsewhere are in horrible shape. Why can't I be embarassed?
I am aware the lack of beautiful buildings is due to history. But a fact is a fact. Compared with Montreal, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, LA and Philadelphia, Toronto looks like a city which had very low expectation for itself all along - someone who was raised in a humble family with bad taste but somehow got successful in later life, yet he still can't hide its upbringing. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's how the city looks and feels and it is unlikely to change.
And I am only talking about appearance here. On the other hand, I never hesitate to praise the progress Toronto made in terms of being unafraid of height and being a huge population into the core. And that's more I can say for cities like Boston or whatever. But that's another topic.
I understand you would instinctively be protective of Toronto, but I am afraid the physical unattractiveness of Toronto (I am only talking about the urban core here) is indisputable. Whether one thinks attractivess and grandeur is important is another matter.
Nice pics btw - Stephen avenue looks pretty mint actually!
Stephen Avenue is rather nice--lots of shops, pubs, and so on. Heck, one of my favourite pubs in the country can be found there.
Thing is, though, that downtown Calgary is just not a hot, happenin' place 24/7. It never has been, and likely never will be. Why? Because other places have developed that way--17th Ave SW is where you go in Calgary for nightlife, funky shops, and whatnot; you don't go downtown. To a lesser extent, Eau Claire (beside the river, just north of downtown) is the same thing.
The same holds for downtown Edmonton. It pretty much shuts down at the end of the business day. But if you want nightlife, etc., you head south of the river, for Whyte Avenue, between 109th Street and Calgary Trail.
Calgary and Edmonton may have dull downtowns at the end of the business day, but that doesn't mean that they don't have nightlife. They do, just not downtown.
I am not being dismissive. I am being realistic. Toronto of course has quite some nice buildings, even world class achitecture, but they are far and in between. The thing is, a city can never be beautiful solely due to a few world class achitecture. It is the regular buildings that form the main stock of the city core, their design and how they fit each other and the street that gives people the main impression of whether a city is beautiful or not. And I am afraid Toronto is not a winner in this game.
Botti - who made you the final say on what is beautiful? The most pervasive architectural form in Old Toronto is probably Victorian (Bay and Gable) and Edwardian. Just because you don't like the style doesn't mean others don't. The most pervasive architecture in Barcelona is that Octagonal disaster that you find throughout the city. Its functional, its urban but imo far from beautiful. THAT is butt ugly stuff! Toronto has a hodge podge of Great, Ok and yes ugly but I love how you think you are the final say on what Is a winner here. I'll relieve you of the pressure - you're not the final say.
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Originally Posted by botticelli
And this is made worse by the fact that those pretty bay and gable houses are primarily residential hidden on a few quiet streets few people ever go unless they live there, unless in cities like Boston, where a lot of them are commerical and therefore have higher visibility. Toronto's main streets that both locals and travelers often see, are UGLY, let it be Yonge or Dundas or Queen, not to mention Jarvis etc which are outright rundown. The tiny part south of Queen is better, like in the examples you mentioned, but they unfortunately are not enough to change the overall impression.
The Bay and Gable is 'hidden' lol. It is the primary architectural style of Old Toronto. If it is hidden than you simply haven't walked through Old Toronto. Walking down Yonge Street and the CBD is NOT walking through Old Toronto - its walking down One Street and the CBD. Simple as that.
A bay-and-gable is a distinct architectural style of house that is ubiquitous in the older parts of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. The most prominent feature is the large bay window that usually covers more than half of the front of the house, surmounted by a gable roof.
As for Commercial streets - I can't for the life of me understand why you would think Queen street is ugly. It has ugly parts but most of it is simply not ugly. Some buildings could use some TLC but Queen street imo is far from ugly. As for Yonge - its a hodge podge and i'll give you that it has ugly parts but you've also been away awhile - Yonge street is changing MASSIVELY as we speak. When you get back, report back. I honestly can't keep up with the changes on Yonge Street. In 5 years it'll look completely different. Otherwise, I don't understand what is the longstanding issues with major arterials like Bloor, King, Queen, College and Roncy. None of them are La Ramblas in elegance or beauty - i'm honestly A ok with that.
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Originally Posted by botticelli
Additionally, I would say unfortunately the majority of Toronto's historical beautiful buildings are two story homes here and there. There is nothing wrong with them per se but they simply aren't the expectation of a big metropolis with 6-7 million people. Montreal's majestic stone/marble buildings and the midrise rowhouses are what people expect. Even downtown Los Angeles' architecture beats downtown Toronto easily. You can't seriously say my big city is beautiful because we have so many two story homes that are primarily residential outside the city centre. Let's be honest, that's the kind of pride much smaller and less important cities hold. Cleveland has plenty of homes like that. So does Columbus Ohio. And maybe Charlston, SC. The fact we are proud of our two story victorian houses as if they were a big deal is embarassing because they are not rare in North American cities. Not to mention the fact that those houses that used as retail on Queen and Yonge and elsewhere are in horrible shape. Why can't I be embarassed?
Yet again I think you are being dismissive and I simply don't agree. I don't have any other way of saying it. I haven't been to Los Angeles so I can't compare but L.A actually is a very large and wealthy city. From what I've seen, I don't think the CBD atleast has better buildings. It certainly doesn't have a Van Der Rohe masterpiece so i'll reserve judgement.
As for Montreal, I've already explained why it has better general pre WWII architecture than Toronto - It was the largest and wealthiest city in Canada for 150 years...... Let that sink in for a bit.. Toronto has been the largest and wealthiest city in Canada for 40 years. In that 40 years, Toronto has built much more stuff than Montreal - even better architectural stuff imo (in the last 40 years not the last 190) but nobody appreciates Santiago Calavatra or Will Alsop or Libeskind or Gehry as much as they do Pre-WWII stuff.. It is what it is but i'll say it again - in terms of architecture Montreal has better general pre-WWII architecture than Toronto. What else do you want me to say. I'm not trying to convince anyone Toronto has more beautiful Pre WWII stuff than Montreal it doesn't. Is there anything else you need me to say about Pre-WWII architecture of Toronto vs Montreal - I've already conceded to Montreal in this regard.... Doesn't mean Toronto doesn't have outstanding examples.. Montreal for example does not have a Grand Train Station like Union. The U of T is an outstanding area for neo-gothic style. The Distillery, outstanding Industrial Victorian, Old City Hall - Outstanding Romanesque.. The Bay and Gable - quite handsome and appealing overall urban form reflective of the prominence of Toronto at the time they were built, but not alpha Pre-WWII stuff found in other N.A cities with more wealth and prominence before the 40s. So yes with all this, not as outstanding as the general Pre WWII architecture of Montreal - or other N.A cities that were more prominent. Toronto was a second class city to Montreal Pre WWII and many currently smaller cities. Toronto was also very much a working class city. There were elites as you can see by some of the mansions on Jarvis and the Annex - wealthy people for sure but the general class of the city was decidedly less than Boston, Montreal, NYC, Chicago etc before the great war.
Cleveland was actually a pretty similar sized city to Toronto Pre WW2. Charleston and Columbus are smaller and while having nice areas - I don't even know why we are comparing them with Toronto. Their pre WW2 bones are decidedly smaller. They are more comparable to Quebec City (which massacres both in terms of Pre WWII architecture).. You can be embarrassed if you want, but as I said, I think you are being ridiculously harsh and over the top with this. Its your prerogative but i'll leave impressions of Toronto to more than just you or I. Visitors probably appreciate the city far more than you are coming across here and i'll just chalk it to you have your own idea of beautiful and I don't share it. Some will agree with you but again, they are not the final say either.
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Originally Posted by botticelli
I am aware the lack of beautiful buildings is due to history. But a fact is a fact. Compared with Montreal, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, LA and Philadelphia, Toronto looks like a city which had very low expectation for itself all along - someone who was raised in a humble family with bad taste but somehow got successful in later life, yet he still can't hide its upbringing. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's how the city looks and feels and it is unlikely to change.
S.F has a butt ugly CBD.. I'm just going to say it. The CBD is on multiple levels lower than Toronto's. The general residential form is Ok. Very white from what I saw but ok but I prefer the form of the Bay and Gable and Edwardian stuff in T.O over S.F. I also prefer T.O residential foliage and greenery. That said, S.F has nice gentle ongoing density and its urban but beautiful in form - nah - beautiful in geography yes. Montreal I've already commented on. Its general pre WWII form is more beautiful than Toronto for reasons we have been through 50 times now. Its like you want to hear me say it even though I've said it often. If you don't get that you never will and that really is no longer my problem. I've been quite clear and honest about that and there are perfectly logical reasons for it.... Boston, basically the same point as Montreal. I like its urban form - I like the density and brownstones. That said, its growing about the same as Montreal. Toronto is growing at about 2X the rate of Boston or Montreal so I think we have to be realistic about what type of buildings we can build with 'high expectation' - For me I prefer 2X growth with a hodge podge over half that. All said, Boston and Montreal are going through a decent condo boom themselves - i'm sure they'll have their critics and I've heard Montrealers in other forums maligning Griffintown. They aren't alone
And I am only talking about appearance here. On the other hand, I never hesitate to praise the progress Toronto made in terms of being unafraid of height and being a huge population into the core. And that's more I can say for cities like Boston or whatever. But that's another topic.
I'm not going to critique Boston's path. Not every city has to be a growth superstar. Boston does VERY well for itself and is definitely my top 5 fav city in N.A. Otherwise I agree with you that Toronto has made and will continue to make a lot of progress. Its probably the most transformative city in North America right now and has been for about a decade. Its exciting. The things you are focused on are not what most people are. I know this of you and your appreciation for certain aesthetics and style. There isn't anything wrong with it but most people don't care about elegant architecture. During Toronto's major growth spurt that is ongoing, I don't think we could realistically accommodate exceptional built for 'elegance' throughout - not practical. I do think we should become more picky about condo development and i'm seeing signs of that but it'll take time. The last two years I've definitely seen a higher standard of general construction than years prior.
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Originally Posted by botticelli
I understand you would instinctively be protective of Toronto, but I am afraid the physical unattractiveness of Toronto (I am only talking about the urban core here) is indisputable. Whether one thinks attractivess and grandeur is important is another matter.
This comment is highly presumptive. I get that people would think this - but I actually really do appreciate the architectural breadth and hodge podge nature of Toronto and it has nothing with being protective - I quite simply disagree with your characterizations of the city that I live in and appreciate. Doesn't mean i'm in denial. I'm not a big fan of one single major style throughout. I'd actually prefer mediocre hodge podge with examples of outstanding here and there to uniform omnipresent similar beauty and elegance. I also feel as though you elevating yourself to being this kind of arbiter of what is undisputable kind of arrogant tbh. You're relieved of that position - nobody crowned you the king of urban design. Some of what you say I agree with when it comes to architecture but not all. I find with you, If it meets your personal view of beauty its a big pass - if it doesn't meet your personal view its big fail. I just don't see things in such contrasts and appreciate different things than you. Neither of us is wrong and neither of us is the god of architecture. Doesn't make you a bad person or me a blind Toronto booster either.
As I said, Barcelona while having extraordinary and unique examples of beautiful architecture (I LOVE Gaudi!!) - also has grotesque and butt ugly large swaths of octagonal, repetitive BLAH. Doesn't mean it isn't functional or urban or isn't a great city - it is and very much so. I'm not going to get all depressed about the BLAH of Barcelona - like Toronto it has enough variation to make it more than interesting. Toronto could learn A lot more from BCN than vice versa in terms of overall urbanism but I also think Toronto has made incredible progress in the last 40 years. Especially given horrible decisions made by some rather gutless leadership. Toronto's success rests with its industrious citizens, not visionary leadership!
I know I've been going on but another thing I will say about Toronto is that it hasn't done a good job at all protecting its heritage. I wish it would FULL STOP this desire to merge old heritage buildings with New Development as a way of 'preserving' - its not its simply trying to check off a box. It should simply leave its heritage stuff alone and build around it. Another thing to mention and this is not the fault of the city, but a lot of the DT core burned down in 1904. If that didn't happen Toronto would probably have a better preserved older core than it does now but S**t happens. No need to be embarrassed or cry about it. The city has enough going for it to be happy about its transition. This has nothing to do with me being protective and everything to do with me appreciating what it has, recognizing what it could do better and also being genuinely excited about its growth trajectory. When all is said and done - Its a big win in my books - even if it doesn't win 'elegant' of the century award. For me that is ok.
Stephen Avenue is rather nice--lots of shops, pubs, and so on. Heck, one of my favourite pubs in the country can be found there.
Thing is, though, that downtown Calgary is just not a hot, happenin' place 24/7. It never has been, and likely never will be. Why? Because other places have developed that way--17th Ave SW is where you go in Calgary for nightlife, funky shops, and whatnot; you don't go downtown. To a lesser extent, Eau Claire (beside the river, just north of downtown) is the same thing.
The same holds for downtown Edmonton. It pretty much shuts down at the end of the business day. But if you want nightlife, etc., you head south of the river, for Whyte Avenue, between 109th Street and Calgary Trail.
Calgary and Edmonton may have dull downtowns at the end of the business day, but that doesn't mean that they don't have nightlife. They do, just not downtown.
Its funny because in keeping the conversation about 'best' DT - the truth is many cities 'best' is not the DT core. It may have the tallest buildings, developing CBD and even high density residential dev, upscale retail dev, key attractions, sports venues and some cultural prominence (Opera houses, Theatre) etc but not really the urban heart and soul of a city. Toronto is much the same as Calgary and Edmonton (as you obviously don't need me telling you lol) in that other than the Gay Villiage - most of the nightlife, interesting restaurants, cafe's, independent shops, vintage clothing and interesting urbanism is located outside the core. That said, if not in the core, at least in closer proximity to it.
It sounds though that Edmonton and Calgary may be a bit more 'American' in that the DT core shuts down more completely than say Toronto or Montreal. When I was in Chicago I saw the same thing. It was cool to stay in the loop a few days and just admire the gorgeous Pre WWII architecture and soaring scrapers of that area, but as an interesting place of night time action - umm not really. It wasn't until a friend took me around the actual really interesting parts of the city did I grow to appreciate the city. He was also careful to keep me AWAY from certain areas of course....
Its funny because in keeping the conversation about 'best' DT - the truth is many cities 'best' is not the DT core. It may have the tallest buildings, developing CBD and even high density residential dev, upscale retail dev, key attractions, sports venues and some cultural prominence (Opera houses, Theatre) etc but not really the urban heart and soul of a city. Toronto is much the same as Calgary and Edmonton (as you obviously don't need me telling you lol) in that other than the Gay Villiage - most of the nightlife, interesting restaurants, cafe's, independent shops, vintage clothing and interesting urbanism is located outside the core. That said, if not in the core, at least in closer proximity to it.
True. It's been many years, but I recall that back in the 1980s, Yonge and Eglinton (hardly downtown to us old-time Torontonians), was hot, hip, and happenin'. There was Brandy's singles bar, the Keg and Cleaver (which became the Keg chain of restaurants), Original Hector's, Alastair's, which had great bands every weekend, the Second City bar (yes, SCTV had a bar), the Unicorn pub, and so much more. Oh, and Fusion, they also had a Fran's, for when the others shut down.
On the periphery of downtown, Queen Street West started happening in the early 1980s too. My girlfriend at the time loved checking out the bands at the Bam Boo Club on Queen, at Spadina. She and I also loved the Bloor Cinema, which showed different old movies every day--a $5 annual membership allowed you to see as many as you wanted, for $1 each. Thinking of Spadina, it had the El Mocambo up near College, which hosted the Rolling Stones once. Jarvis Street had the Hotel California, which was basically a brothel (shhh!) upstairs, but which had a great rock club in the basement. The Blue Note, on Pears Avenue near Bay and Davenport, had the absolute best R&B, but I only went when there was an act I really wanted to see, because the staff were such a**holes.
And of course, the Beaches, out Queen East, always had plenty going on: the Sand Bar, Lion on the Beach, even the Honey Bee (world's greasiest Chinese-Canadian food, but oh-so-good after a night of drinking).
As for the Gay Village--it had the city's best Toby's. I don't know why, and even though Toby's Burgers were scattered all over, another girlfriend insisted that if we decided on Toby's for dinner, it had to be the one on Church, just south of Wellesley. She insisted it was the best Toby's in town, and, well, I had to agree.
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It sounds though that Edmonton and Calgary may be a bit more 'American' in that the DT core shuts down more completely than say Toronto or Montreal.
Possibly, yes. I've also been to Chicago, and stayed downtown. While my hotel had a bar and a restaurant and a jazz club, there wasn't much else nearby. There were a couple of things, but not as many as I would find in Toronto. Of course, as you found, there is lots happening in Chicago after hours, just not downtown; and it is the same for Calgary and Edmonton.
True. It's been many years, but I recall that back in the 1980s, Yonge and Eglinton (hardly downtown to us old-time Torontonians), was hot, hip, and happenin'. There was Brandy's singles bar, the Keg and Cleaver (which became the Keg chain of restaurants), Original Hector's, Alastair's, which had great bands every weekend, the Second City bar (yes, SCTV had a bar), the Unicorn pub, and so much more. Oh, and Fusion, they also had a Fran's, for when the others shut down.
Yonge and Eglinton is now going through a major condo boom.. Its probably unrecognizable these days vs back in the 80's.. Once the Eglinton Crosstown LRT starts up in 2021 it'll really start bringing a lot of people to the area. The Crosstown is a key transit initiative in one of the most important east/west arterials in the city. Yonge and Eglinton is an area to watch for sure! No clue they had a SCTV bar there though
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Originally Posted by ChevySpoons
On the periphery of downtown, Queen Street West started happening in the early 1980s too. My girlfriend at the time loved checking out the bands at the Bam Boo Club on Queen, at Spadina. She and I also loved the Bloor Cinema, which showed different old movies every day--a $5 annual membership allowed you to see as many as you wanted, for $1 each. Thinking of Spadina, it had the El Mocambo up near College, which hosted the Rolling Stones once. Jarvis Street had the Hotel California, which was basically a brothel (shhh!) upstairs, but which had a great rock club in the basement. The Blue Note, on Pears Avenue near Bay and Davenport, had the absolute best R&B, but I only went when there was an act I really wanted to see, because the staff were such a**holes.
Ha the Bam boo club eh... I only went there once with friends and that was about a year before it closed down. There are a lot of venues that are no longer with us but of course, lots of new one's that pop up. I'm still glad the Reservoir Lounge on Wellington is still around! Its one of my favourite places in the city. We do the Gladstone every once and awhile and the Rex
I haven't heard of the Hotel California - intrigued but I think she is long gone. The only place I frequented regularly on Jarvis was the Blake House! Great Steaks.
If yes its now Hot Docs Ted Rogers Cinema. The cheapest place in the core to watch movies is the Carlton Cinema. Its small but intimate and you can catch 5 buck matinee's. You won't get typical Hollywood blockbusters but some good Indie films for sure.
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Originally Posted by ChevySpoons
As for the Gay Village--it had the city's best Toby's. I don't know why, and even though Toby's Burgers were scattered all over, another girlfriend insisted that if we decided on Toby's for dinner, it had to be the one on Church, just south of Wellesley. She insisted it was the best Toby's in town, and, well, I had to agree.
Wow another place I've never heard of lol.. This must have been awhile ago. The only burger places in the villiage are the chain Hero Burger (blech) and Fresh Burger (much better).
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Originally Posted by ChevySpoons
Possibly, yes. I've also been to Chicago, and stayed downtown. While my hotel had a bar and a restaurant and a jazz club, there wasn't much else nearby. There were a couple of things, but not as many as I would find in Toronto. Of course, as you found, there is lots happening in Chicago after hours, just not downtown; and it is the same for Calgary and Edmonton.
The major difference I found with the nightlife in Chicago vs Toronto is that Chicago had more pub type places. Toronto has those obviously but most younger people in Toronto go to full on thump thump nightclubs. Since i'm no longer in my 20's (or 30's ) I actually found I preferred the more laid back nature of Chicago's nightlife. Even the gay area was more laid back. The neighbourhood gay bar in Chicago actually had the Golden Girls on the night we went lol - that would NEVER happen at Woody's in Toronto. So essentially I thought Chicagoans were a little less stuck up
Yonge and Eglinton is now going through a major condo boom.. Its probably unrecognizable these days vs back in the 80's.. Once the Eglinton Crosstown LRT starts up in 2021 it'll really start bringing a lot of people to the area. The Crosstown is a key transit initiative in one of the most important east/west arterials in the city. Yonge and Eglinton is an area to watch for sure! No clue they had a SCTV bar there though
Well, the Second City place didn't last long--maybe a year or two.
I'm sure that Yonge and Eglinton is unrecognizeable--heck, I've seen that it's becoming that way. When I was in town a couple of years ago, I had to meet a lawyer on a business matter. His office was on Eglinton East, not far from Yonge. After our meeting, I wandered around the neighbourhood. Lots of changes, and lots of construction.
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I haven't heard of the Hotel California - intrigued but I think she is long gone.
Oh, I'm sure it is. Like I said, there were some illicit activities happening upstairs from the basement rock club. It was an open secret, but nobody really cared--until someone obviously did.
If yes its now Hot Docs Ted Rogers Cinema. The cheapest place in the core to watch movies is the Carlton Cinema. Its small but intimate and you can catch 5 buck matinee's. You won't get typical Hollywood blockbusters but some good Indie films for sure.
Yes, that's the Bloor, where we saw many cheap movies. Perfect for students on a budget. Glad to know that it is still there.
Where is the Carlton? The name leads me to believe that it is on Carlton Street. I'm thinking I might know where, but I'm not sure.
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Wow another place I've never heard of lol.. This must have been awhile ago. The only burger places in the villiage are the chain Hero Burger (blech) and Fresh Burger (much better).
I misspoke (thanks so much, memory-of-mine); the real name of the place was "Toby's Good Eats." Google it, as I did, and you'll find it in list-type articles such as "Toronto's Forgotten Restaurants."
There were two places for outstanding burgers in town in those days: Toby's and Lick's. Lick's may have had the (slight) edge, but it stayed at one location in the Beaches; Toby's had the locations elsewhere: Yonge/Eglinton, Yonge/Bloor, North York, Eaton Centre, and of course the Gay Village, among others. The menu was simple, and centered around about six different kinds of burgers, served with fries. Basic appetizers and salads, and desserts. Soft drinks, coffee, tea, and licensed for beer and wine (I had my first Corona beer at the location on Church Street in about 1988).
It looks like Toby's went through a change of ownership, tried a few new menu items that went over like lead balloons, rebranded itself, and failed. Today, there is one in Toronto (a shadow of the original, according to reviews), and one in Hamilton.
But Toby's was a favourite of mine, in its heyday. Are you old enough to remember Frank Vetere's Pizza or the Organ Grinder on the Esplanade?
Well, the Second City place didn't last long--maybe a year or two.
I'm sure that Yonge and Eglinton is unrecognizeable--heck, I've seen that it's becoming that way. When I was in town a couple of years ago, I had to meet a lawyer on a business matter. His office was on Eglinton East, not far from Yonge. After our meeting, I wandered around the neighbourhood. Lots of changes, and lots of construction.
BUT it is still called Yonge and Eligible these days
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Originally Posted by ChevySpoons
Oh, I'm sure it is. Like I said, there were some illicit activities happening upstairs from the basement rock club. It was an open secret, but nobody really cared--until someone obviously did.
The city owes a lot to the shedding of its conservative image to the gay community back in the 70's early 80's. Bathhouse raids by the TPS really got the ball moving and started what was then a protest movement by the gay community. The huge gay pride parades/festivities we have in Toronto every year are rooted in those very protest movement. Point being, we did a lot to shed the image of Toronto the good and take places like Hotel California out of the 'underground' - now you can find equivalent Hotel California's both Gay and Straight all over the city. Difference being, they are legal. Toronto is after all, the birthplace of Ashley Madison. Of course, with the internet being what it is in this day and age, people don't even need to leave their own home anymore.
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Originally Posted by ChevySpoons
Yes, that's the Bloor, where we saw many cheap movies. Perfect for students on a budget. Glad to know that it is still there.
Still there - just focused on documentary screenings. Not bad - I love docs!
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Originally Posted by ChevySpoons
Where is the Carlton? The name leads me to believe that it is on Carlton Street. I'm thinking I might know where, but I'm not sure.
Very close to one of our old Favs - that is still around Fran's! So Fran's is on Carlton just west of Yonge as you know. Carton Cinema is just east of Yonge between Yonge and Maple Leaf Gardens. The theatre's are a blast from the past! Not like modern style Cinema with 3D and ultra deafening sound or IMAX. Just old school theatres not very big but cozy and intimate. Perfect place to watch an indie film at a 5 buck matinee. One of the places I miss about not living DT anymore!
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Originally Posted by ChevySpoons
There were two places for outstanding burgers in town in those days: Toby's and Lick's. Lick's may have had the (slight) edge, but it stayed at one location in the Beaches; Toby's had the locations elsewhere: Yonge/Eglinton, Yonge/Bloor, North York, Eaton Centre, and of course the Gay Village, among others. The menu was simple, and centered around about six different kinds of burgers, served with fries. Basic appetizers and salads, and desserts. Soft drinks, coffee, tea, and licensed for beer and wine (I had my first Corona beer at the location on Church Street in about 1988).
The culinary scene in Toronto has evolved by leaps and bounds since the 80's. Even the burger scene has evolved. Now gourmet burger joints abound and are numerous/plentiful. The It gourmet burger place in Toronto now is the Burgers Priest
But Toby's was a favourite of mine, in its heyday. Are you old enough to remember Frank Vetere's Pizza or the Organ Grinder on the Esplanade?
I'll check out the lone remaining Toby's Good Eats place in the city - just to share in the nostalgia with you. I didn't have Frank Vetere's and never heard of the Organ Grindar.. Probably by the time I was old enough to appreciate them they were being replaced by T.O evolving culinary scene.
Even though you have been away from Toronto for a long time as a resident - its nice to discuss the city with someone who still 'knows' it. There are people who live here more recently than you, but they don't get its heart and soul like you do!
BUT it is still called Yonge and Eligible these days
An old Toronto joke: first of all, understand that the mayor was Art Eggleton, and a city councillor was named Ying Hope.
So I need some help from City Hall. Can anybody tell me how to get to Ying and Eggleton?
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The city owes a lot to the shedding of its conservative image to the gay community back in the 70's early 80's.
True. That was Toronto's Stonewall. Glad it happened too; some of what happened back in the 1970s was shameful. The St. Charles Tavern on Yonge was the hub of the gay community in those days; and every Hallowe'en, crowds would gather outside to throw tomatoes at patrons coming and going. Glad that you guys, just like Stonewall, fought back against that kind of thing.
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Very close to one of our old Favs - that is still around Fran's! So Fran's is on Carlton just west of Yonge as you know. Carton Cinema is just east of Yonge between Yonge and Maple Leaf Gardens. The theatre's are a blast from the past! Not like modern style Cinema with 3D and ultra deafening sound or IMAX. Just old school theatres not very big but cozy and intimate. Perfect place to watch an indie film at a 5 buck matinee. One of the places I miss about not living DT anymore!
Yep, it's the place I was thinking of. Let me tell you about the old Carlton, which was on the same site.
First of all, understand that movie theatres used to have what was known as "continuous showings." This was where movies had no set start time--you bought a ticket, and you could stay all day. So, "The Sting, continuous showings from 11:00 AM" meant that The Sting would start at 11:00 AM, and just repeat throughout the day. People would arrive halfway through, see the end of the movie, then see the first half and leave. They'd seen the whole movie, just not in the right order. Or they might stay for two or three showings.
The old Carlton (and I'm serious when I say "the old Carlton") was an old-school cinema. It also offered continuous showings, but it also advertised "organ recitals." It had a beautiful old pipe organ that rose up from below the stage between movie showings, and an organist who entertained between shows. So, the newspaper might say, "The Sting, continuous showings from 11:00 AM, organ recitals at 1:30 PM, 4:00 PM, 6:30 PM," and so on. You could tell when the movie started, without having to guess; and if you wanted to hear an organ recital, you could. I was lucky enough to hear such a recital when I was a child, when my Mom and I went to a movie there. The organist was fantastic--hey this wasn't church music, which was the only time I had heard an organ--and though I hated taking piano, the organist inspired me to agree that keyboards didn't always have to play dull classical stuff like my piano teacher wanted me to play.
Love the link about TO's past restaurants--I ate at all, at one time or another. Ponderosa, Mother's, Chi Chi's--aw, now I'm hungry!
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Even though you have been away from Toronto for a long time as a resident - its nice to discuss the city with someone who still 'knows' it. There are people who live here more recently than you, but they don't get its heart and soul like you do!
Thanks, Fusion. Toronto is my home town, and though I don't live there any more, I consider that it is still my home. I still don't need a TTC map--hell, I haven't used a map in Toronto since forever, even when I visit now.
I don't hesitate to step into the street when the streetcar comes (the hell with the car traffic; it has brakes); and "Yonge" is pronounced "Young"; "Strachan" is pronounced "Strawn," and "Baby Point Road" is "Bobby Point." It's "the Lakeshore" and "the Danforth," and it is streets that change their name for no apparent reason ("College/Carlton," "Duplex/Jedburgh/Ridley" "University/Queen's Park Circle/Avenue Road"). It's a street ironically called "Avenue Road." It's the cow gates at Osgoode Hall, skating at City Hall, the world's best pizza from Bitondo's on Clinton Street, riding streetcars, the Ex, the calm of the U of T campus, the madness of St. Lawrence Market on a Saturday morning. It is Leslieville, and Greektown, and Little India, and Little Italy on College Street, and Chinatown, and so much more. And it is people who appreciate all of the above.
I know Toronto. I know (thanks, Fusion) its heart and soul. Toronto is my home, and nothing will ever change that. Gosh, now I'm reconsidering vacation plans--I'd love a Bitondo's pizza, or a souvlaki meal from that place on the Danforth that I used to go to. I'd groove on the stone caricatures at Old City Hall, cheer on the Blue Jays, have coffee at Hart House on the U of T campus, ride the Queen car out to take a walk along the Beaches.
Hm. Now you've got me thinking.
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) I actually found I preferred the more laid back nature of Chicago's nightlife. Even the gay area was more laid back. The neighbourhood gay bar in Chicago actually had the Golden Girls on the night we went lol - that would NEVER happen at Woody's in Toronto. So essentially I thought Chicagoans were a little less stuck up 
