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"full support"... really? Because of what? Because the bombing without UN approval is legal? Because there is a shred of evidence who did it? Because logic tells us when Assad is getting everything he wants, so close to taking control of the situation, it is his best interest to poison gas the civilians in broad day light and outrage the entire international community?
I thought Trudeau was better than Harper when it comes to senseless wars, apparently I am wrong. He doesn't have to criticise Trump because we don't want to sour the relationship, but after 12 hours, all he comes up with is "full support" of bombing?
I guess those Americans who wanted to immigrate to Canada can stay put now.
Well, there's plenty of evidence that Assad's regime is guilty of a wide range of actions that constitute war crimes. As with Saydnaya Prison ("the slaughterhouse," estimated 13,000 tortured and executed there since 2011); other poison gas attacks against civilians (Ghouta in 2013, 1400 civilian deaths; routine bombing of civilian centres such as hospitals (more than 300), mosques, and schools. These atrocities have been going on for so many years with little outrage from the outside world.
To be sure, there are horrible acts that have likely been committed by rebel forces. But I have a hard time viewing Assad as a peacemaker, foiled when he was just about to regain control of the situation. Take a look at how he's been trying to regain control. Atrocities are nothing to the Assad regime. War is hell...
Well, there's plenty of evidence that Assad's regime is guilty of a wide range of actions that constitute war crimes. As with Saydnaya Prison ("the slaughterhouse," estimated 13,000 tortured and executed there since 2011); other poison gas attacks against civilians (Ghouta in 2013, 1400 civilian deaths; routine bombing of civilian centres such as hospitals (more than 300), mosques, and schools. These atrocities have been going on for so many years with little outrage from the outside world.
To be sure, there are horrible acts that have likely been committed by rebel forces. But I have a hard time viewing Assad as a peacemaker, foiled when he was just about to regain control of the situation. Take a look at how he's been trying to regain control. Atrocities are nothing to the Assad regime. War is hell...
so that in in itself is enough to attack Syria? Are atrocities common to the Saudi regime?
And in terms of "war crimes", what does it mean?
war crime
noun
plural noun: war crimes
an act carried out during the conduct of a war that violates accepted international rules of war.
By this definition along with "international rules of wars", I think Bush undoubtedly committed war crimes. Should we start bombing Washington?
War crime also includes and "weapons that cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering". should Obama be considered war criminal due to his drone attacks resulting in thousands of unncessary civilian death?
yes, pretty easy to put Assad in the category of war criminals, but you have to apply the same definition fairly.
Even putting all this aside, will the situation in Syria, and the life of Syrians be better off as a result of additional bombing? You tell me, from the experience in Iraq, Libya etc. Do we really want Assad to lose power so that various terrorists take control of Syria? Does the west really continue to naively think by planting a pro-west puppet government, peace will be reached and people will have a better life? Wait, that was never the goal of our intervention!
"full support"... really? Because of what? Because the bombing without UN approval is legal? Because there is a shred of evidence who did it? Because logic tells us when Assad is getting everything he wants, so close to taking control of the situation, it is his best interest to poison gas the civilians in broad day light and outrage the entire international community?
I thought Trudeau was better than Harper when it comes to senseless wars, apparently I am wrong. He doesn't have to criticise Trump because we don't want to sour the relationship, but after 12 hours, all he comes up with is "full support" of bombing?
I guess those Americans who wanted to immigrate to Canada can stay put now.
I agree with Trudeau's stance 100 percent.
I'm sure the US military could take out Assad himself easily (with those same cruise missiles)
I'm sure US intelligence knows exactly where he is located.
Only thing stopping them from doing so is Russia and who to put in power in his place.
The US also expressed the intention to act on North Korea unilaterally. Great, let's have more wars, or better a new cold war!
Why can't the US and the west world realise that outside their self-claims "free world", there is another world that may have their own history and problems and would function differently?
Why don't they realize their frequent involvement in all the regional conflicts are NOT bringing peace and are making everything WORSE? Why can't they accept the reality that in many regions, high handed even brutal dictatorship is in fact the best scenario possible, no matter how much they want to spread their freedom and democracy?
I'm sure the US military could take out Assad himself easily (with those same cruise missiles)
I'm sure US intelligence knows exactly where he is located.
Only thing stopping them from doing so is Russia and who to put in power in his place.
Wow, we get to decide who to put in power in a foreign country! Just WOW. I guess someone pro-West, just like in Afghanistan? Look how wonderful things turned out, all peace and prosperity and terrorism disappear completely!
The problem was never about whether Assad is good or bad. It is about whether there is a better option for Syrians than Assad. We removed so many dictators eslewhere and decided on "who to put in power", and without except, things got worse than under the dictator, and people like you still think we should continuing doing so, just because we don't like dictators.
People like you make me respect the country of Canada a lot less. You know a lot of people outside tend to think "Canada is peaceful and Canadians don't like wars like the US does", and I keep telling them "no there is no difference, it is just Canada is so small and insignifant and nobody cares about what it thinks - they are as self-rightesous and agressive as the US if they were as powerful". Guess what, you prove me right.
If you are so confident and so beligerent, why not start bombing Syria before and without the US? Wait, Canada is not capable of doing that. Russia will have no problem sending Canada's sorry ass home. Yet people like you are so hysterial behind the power of the US army. Marvelous! Impressive!
"who the put in power in his place". this sentence makes me sick. I am just glad Russia has quite some influence in the region and the US can't really do whatever it wants. I also wish China could be tougher on issues like that - fortunately they are smart enough to care about their own people than spending billions attacking foreign countries and planting puppet regimes.
Assad has been flagrantly flipping the middle finger on probably countless chemical weapons conventions. I agree with the poster who said that there is enough evidence that Assad used these weapons and he crossed a line. As a result, men, women and CHILDREN died a horrifying death that no human should have to endure. Obama should have done this when Assad used chem weapons back in 2013 but brokered a 'deal' with Putin whereby the Assad regime would NOT use chemical weapons anymore. Well guess what happened to that deal.
President Trump was entirely in the right to do this. It was a strong message by hitting the airfield from which those planes took off to do this heinous crime, that the U.S will not tolerate a regime that flagrantly decides IT can do what it wants with the lives of innocent people esp children and babies. I don't care if Trump had 'authority' or not - governing bodies haven't had the guts to do what Trump did and it was right. It also sends a BIG signal that he isn't anyone's puppet including Putin. I have a wholely new found respect for Trump now.
People like you make me respect the country of Canada a lot less. You know a lot of people outside tend to think "Canada is peaceful and Canadians don't like wars like the US does", and I keep telling them "no there is no difference, it is just Canada is so small and insignifant and nobody cares about what it thinks - they are as self-rightesous and agressive as the US if they were as powerful". Guess what, you prove me right.
If you are so confident and so beligerent, why not start bombing Syria before and without the US? Wait, Canada is not capable of doing that. Russia will have no problem sending Canada's sorry ass home. Yet people like you are so hysterial behind the power of the US army. Marvelous! Impressive!
.
Canada is not a military power. It will largely tow the line of the U.S. In some cases it doesn't but this is another example where it does and it this case we are right to support Trump. Nobody else gives a damn about those kids who got gassed out. Do you think Xi Jinping cares? Use of chemical weapons is something that should NOT be tolerated. If North Korea nuked Seoul should that be tolerated? Would Jinping act on that - hmmm Probably not. I don't agree with the U.S F.P all the time and I don't think that the U.S should go 'into' Syria but if Assad crosses the line and use chemical or nuclear (they don't have those) than yes, there should be a response.
As for you saying Canada is small and insignificant - you are clearly emotional and posting as a way to vent. This is a theme I've noticed with you Canada is actually quite a significant arms exporter though, so no it isn't this pacifist country you think about (no clue where you ever got that) and what it lacks in overall power militarily it makes up in quality. See what we are doing in Ukraine to help that country bolster its capabilities. You'd be surprised. Canada is the guy who doesn't talk loudly but works quite extensively behind the scenes.
That said, welcome to the real world and thanks for giving me my Saturday morning chuckle. When the **** hits the fan, Canada will almost always support the U.S and its overall position as leader of the bloc that counters global domination by China and Russian d. I'm surprised you're so surprised. I don't agree with what Bush Jr did in Iraq or even what Obama did in Libya. That said, gassing your own people crosses a line and Trump had to and should have responded as Obama should have. Trump isn't going to put soldiers in Syria or invade it - he is simply sending a signal to Assad to STOP using chems. If Assad continues his war using conventional means, Trump will probably do nothing. People are overreacting about what Trump did but I for one am glad he did and if Assad uses chems again Trump shouldn't be as gentle as he was this time. 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles is a gentle tap from a country like the U.S. Putin sending the Admiral Grigorovich to the region will do nothing. The Aircraft Carrier U.S.S George H.W Bush is in the region as are all kinds of U.S Guidance Missile Destroyers and Nuclear powered submarines. Admiral G is feckless in comparison and could only watch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli
The US also expressed the intention to act on North Korea unilaterally. Great, let's have more wars, or better a new cold war!
Why can't the US and the west world realise that outside their self-claims "free world", there is another world that may have their own history and problems and would function differently?
Why don't they realize their frequent involvement in all the regional conflicts are NOT bringing peace and are making everything WORSE? Why can't they accept the reality that in many regions, high handed even brutal dictatorship is in fact the best scenario possible, no matter how much they want to spread their freedom and democracy?
Ask Japan and South Korea if they are happy with China's ability to keep the peace in the region. I think you'll know the answer to that lol.. If the U.S destroys North Korea the only person to blame for that will be that little ignoramus Jung un - if China doesn't want the U.S getting involved China should do its part in shutting that annoying little boy up. Is China a regional power or what? If it is, it needs to start acting like it and forcing N.K to halt its Nuclear and ICBM program that threatens our continent and key regional allies. North Korea keeps talking about how they want to obliterate the U.S over and over again - well now they have a U.S President who will take what they say seriously.. Sounds reasonable to me.
Canada will almost always support the U.S and its overall position as leader of the bloc that counters global domination by China and Russian d. I'm surprised you're so surprised. I don't agree with what Bush Jr did in Iraq or even what Obama did in Libya. That said, gassing your own people crosses a line and Trump had to and should have responded as Obama should have. Trump isn't going to put soldiers in Syria or invade it - he is simply sending a signal to Assad to STOP using chems. If Assad continues his war using conventional means, Trump will probably do nothing. People are overreacting about what Trump did but I for one am glad he did and if Assad uses chems again Trump shouldn't be as gentle as he was this time. 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles is a gentle tap from a country like the U.S
Except Canada should NOT support without principle. They are allies, great, but when US does something absolutely senseless, are you saying Canada should support it all along? I expect more from it. That makes a difference between a country with a concience and a minion. Do you agree?
You say Trump is sending a message about STOP using chems -- however, as I said repeated, there is no evidence that it is Assad who did it. It defies any logic as I explained earlier. Then what's the legitimacy to attack a country with no concrete evidence, and without UN approval? I thought the reason they attack Syria was because Assad violated international law about not using chemical weapon, then the US violates international law to punish it? How convincing to me. Guess the law is used only when we need it?
You are completely avoiding the key issue here and just blindly believe whatever western media feeds you. and even those newspaper didn't bring out evidence, just their speculation. Should th world work like that now? If Assad did do that and it is proved, then I have no problem with the attack. But there is none. That makes the attack neither moral nor legal. That makes Canada's support shameful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2
Ask Japan and South Korea if they are happy with China's ability to keep the peace in the region. I think you'll know the answer to that lol.. If the U.S destroys North Korea the only person to blame for that will be that little ignoramus Jung un - if China doesn't want the U.S getting involved China should do its part in shutting that annoying little boy up. Is China a regional power or what? If it is, it needs to start acting like it and forcing N.K to halt its Nuclear and ICBM program that threatens our continent and key regional allies. North Korea keeps talking about how they want to obliterate the U.S over and over again - well now they have a U.S President who will take what they say seriously.. Sounds reasonable to me.
Do you really think North Korea is controlled by China? If you pay more attention on world affairs lately, you would know it is NOT. China may have want to use NK as a leverage, but rest assured China doesn't want a regional war in East Asia as much as any country. China only cares about its own economic development and is far less involved in the ideological conflict than the western counterparts, nor does it want to force other country to adopt its own political system.
Forcing NK to halt its nuclear program? How? I didn't see the US was able to halt Israel's agressive settlement in Palestine either, and they two are much better relationship. Canada didn't seem to care either. The west is not bombing Saudi Arabia either when everyone knows clearly it is creating and exporting terrorism. Yet it bombs Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afganistan etc etc. How did that turn out?
And also think about this: why does NK threaten to nuke the US over and over again, not Canada, not France, not Brazil, but the United States, the most powerful and impossible enemy? You have to think about it. Because NK hates the "freedom and democracy" in the western world?? You have got to be a 5 year old to believe that. I am against nuclear weapon of course, but why these world power turn a blind eye when Israel, India develope their nuclear weapon?
You might say, because it is not a stable regime, evil axis. Who are US and Canada to decide who is stable and who is evil? For some countries the US represents repression and evil too (it certainly appears often so to me), should we force the US to give up its nuclear weapon?
Yes, that's the real world we live - big guys telling small guys what not to do, which is fine, But let's not pretend it is because of morality or the responsibility to pretect anyone. And from Nk's perpective, it wants to survive and would consider it its right, and probably only way to have nuclear in order to have a chance against big powers that hate it all along.
Assad has been flagrantly flipping the middle finger on probably countless chemical weapons conventions. I agree with the poster who said that there is enough evidence that Assad used these weapons and he crossed a line. As a result, men, women and CHILDREN died a horrifying death that no human should have to endure. Obama should have done this when Assad used chem weapons back in 2013 but brokered a 'deal' with Putin whereby the Assad regime would NOT use chemical weapons anymore. Well guess what happened to that deal.
President Trump was entirely in the right to do this. It was a strong message by hitting the airfield from which those planes took off to do this heinous crime, that the U.S will not tolerate a regime that flagrantly decides IT can do what it wants with the lives of innocent people esp children and babies. I don't care if Trump had 'authority' or not - governing bodies haven't had the guts to do what Trump did and it was right. It also sends a BIG signal that he isn't anyone's puppet including Putin. I have a wholely new found respect for Trump now.
You are making so many logic errors here.
You said Obama should have done that with evidence, OK, blame Obama, but all of a sudden, what makes it right to Trump to do it WITHOUT? I don't understand your logic here, because you yourself said there is no evidence the crime this time is committed by Assad, then why the hell do you think the US is right to bomb it, killing more people?
And "U.S will not tolerate a regime that flagrantly decides IT can do what it wants with the lives of innocent people esp children and babies"... wow the hypocricy is so multifold that I can't process it right away. Let's give some hint here
1. Saudi Arabia (yes and sorry, I will keep using this example)
2. US war on Iraq, which everyone including Bush himself admits was a mistake. Did "children and babies" die because of this? Who is being held responsible? I guess when it comes to big powers, it does NOT matter any more??? Why do you not feel the same self-righteousness?
3. Obama's irresponsibile drone attacks. Did thousands of children and babies die from it? Yet the criminal is holding his Nobel Peace prize now. I guess since western newspapers didn't show grahic photos of dead bodies (guess why?), you won't have a strong reaction.
Are you seriously only responding to what the media chooses to show you, and then form your opinions based solely on that? You have gotta to be smarter than that.
Your problem is when a non-western country does something wrong, you scrutinize it and call for the most severe punishement - which is fine. Yet when a western country does something equally bad and wrong, you pretend it is not that serious, or it is "for a good cause" or pretend it didn't happen and give them a free pass, or worse, even give the same country the legimacy to attack others when it deems appropriate.
You are usually a very reasonable person with a clear head about complicated issues. But I am afraid on this you are just as brainwashed and prejudiced as the next Canadian. "New found respect for Trump"? Trump doesn't have a plan what to do next! Foreign policy is about making things better in the end, not to punish whoever you think did wrong!
just wait. Syria will turn worse and terrorism and probably ISIS will be on the rise again, all thanks to Trump. He did something completely contrary to what he promised in his campaign:
Lambasted Obama for involving the US in the Syrian war, then jump into the quagmire himself.
Laughed at Obama for being friendly with China, who supposedly stole millions of jobs, and then accept a state visit invitation right away. I am still waiting for that 45% tariff.
Bragged about improving relationship with Russia, and not even 100 days, the relationship hits new low, with Russian ships sailing into the mediterranian.
Good job. The world is a much better and safe place thanks to Trump. The Syrian people would have to thank President Trump to have their best interest in heart. Just great.
I cry inside for more unstability in Syria. It seems the Syrian people see no end of this tunnel because big countries do whatever they feel on an impulse, regardless of the long term consequence. I also cry for the poor western people like you who are completely blinded by the totally biased western media, and support the senseless agression.
You might think Trump is doing Syria a favour, guess what, so did a lot of German when Nazi invaded Poland and other neighbours. I will not look at this thread I myself created, because it hurts and angers me to see how even rational Canadians like you support wholeheartedly such a crime against a country without any justification - oh, yes, there are, a few photos. I guess that's enough to throw 59 bombs.
Just perfect. Western countries are such selfless saints...
Last edited by botticelli; 04-08-2017 at 09:10 AM..
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Just WOW. I guess someone pro-West, just like in Afghanistan? Look how wonderful things turned out, all peace and prosperity and terrorism disappear completely! 
Canada is actually quite a significant arms exporter though, so no it isn't this pacifist country you think about (no clue where you ever got that) and what it lacks in overall power militarily it makes up in quality. See what we are doing in Ukraine to help that country bolster its capabilities. You'd be surprised. Canada is the guy who doesn't talk loudly but works quite extensively behind the scenes. 
