Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-24-2019, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,552,312 times
Reputation: 11937

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
Western alienation will be a serious problem for Canada going forward.
“Let’s face it, the anger and alienation in western Canada is real and this government will have to deal with it,” Taras said.

“There’s a sense of just awful alienation, of really feeling deeply offended and I think the (Trudeau) government has to really take a look at what it has to do in terms of energy policy and pipelines in order to get any kind of hearing here.”
https://globalnews.ca/news/6065702/2...ration-canada/
Not sure how accurate this is, it's from a Anything but Conservative FB page, but it does cover some of the ROC sentiments about Alberta.

Alberta: Help Canadians Understand
ANYBODY BUT CONSERVATIVE·WEDNESDAY, 23 OCTOBER 2019·8 MINUTES
Ok, Alberta. Lets talk. We’ll start and then we hope you can help Canadians outside of your beautiful province understand why you are so frustrated because a lot of us can’t see it and don’t understand the angst you are experiencing.


Median after-tax income, 2013 to 2017
Like all complaints, it must start with the money. In 2017, during the worst of the Alberta recession, median after-tax income in your province was $70,300. So the median income decreased from a high of $74,200 in 2014 to $70,300 in 2017. It’s understandable you would be unhappy about that. Nobody wants to see their income decline 5% in 3 years.
Lets look at it from the perspective of a non-Albertan. Even in the worst part of the recession, your median income was still $7,600 higher than Ontario (12.2%) and $10,500 more (17.7%) than the national average. Certainly, we can understand why you’re not happy with lower wages, you are still, by far, the wealthiest province in Canada.


Unemployment rates by province
Looking at the unemployment rate, we can see it sits at 6.6%. While that is 1.1% higher than the national average it is far lower than Newfoundland and Labrador at 11.5% and all of the maritime provinces. It’s also far lower than high of 9.1% Alberta experienced at the height of the recession. Recoveries from recessions take time but it seems like Alberta is well on it’s way to an unemployment rate below the national average once again.
Based on recent statements by Conservative leaders, the blame is being put at the feet of current Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and former Alberta Premier, Rachel Notley. This seems extremely unfair to people outside of Alberta.
To start, the Alberta recession began in 2014 while the Conservatives were in power provincially and nationally. So, it is extremely unfair to blame Notley for the previous 40 years of Conservatives in Alberta and Trudeau for the previous 10 years of Harper Conservatives in Ottawa. To outsiders it seems like the blame falls solely to Conservatives if blame is to be assigned.
A common refrain is that Trudeau is threatening national unity because he hasn’t done anything for Alberta. Again from an outsiders perspective, it seems like Trudeau has done a lot of things to try to help Alberta but gets nothing but criticism from Alberta politicians. Much to the dismay of progressives outside Alberta, Trudeau bought a pipeline to show his commitment to Alberta but was still met with criticism because no matter what he does, he gets criticized. I can tell you that many Trudeau supporters would have said screw it, and not continued to try engaging with Albertans but, to his credit, he has persevered.
At the height of the recession, the Trudeau government made changes to EI to help Albertans. He enhanced benefits, granting up to 70 weeks of coverage to long-tenured employees in 12 regions with high unemployment.
If you want to assign blame for the recession, you should look squarely at the 5 largest oilsands companies who laid off 20,000 employees despite making large profits.
The five companies paid $31.76 billion in dividends to shareholders over the period, including $12.56 billion after the oil price crash in 2014.
In 2017, the Big Five transferred a total of $6.2 billion to shareholders ($4.16 billion in dividends and $2.04 billion in share buybacks) and had residual savings of $7.3 billion, while paying out $4.72 billion in taxes and royalties to all levels of government.
The aggregate gross profit of the companies in 2017 was $46.6 billion, which was close to the Alberta government’s revenue of $47.3 billion.


The rest of Canada gets it Alberta, you love oil and gas but maybe oil and gas doesn’t love you if they so easily layoff workers while making large profits. If you don’t want the companies laying off so many people while making such large profits then you have the power to regulate those businesses. You have the power to set royalty rates for the province. You have the power. Don’t blame Ottawa for your mistakes.
Since year 1 of his term as Prime Minister, we have listened to complaints that Trudeau doesn’t care about pipelines and was doing nothing to get them built. Many non-Albertans would have been happy if that was the case but Trudeau has continued to try and get the Trans Mountain expansion built.
Amazing, that in 10 years of Conservative government nationally and decades provincially, there was barely a peep of complaint about pipelines not being built but in the first year of a Liberal government in Ottawa, people were demanding pipelines be built immediately. It hardly seems fair, particularly when Trudeau will have expanded pipeline capacity far more than the Conservatives did in half the time.


Line 3 Replacement
The Enbridge Line 3 Pipeline Replacement Project is expected to come into production in December 2019 and will expand export capacity by 370,000 barrels per day. No Stephen Harper project came close to this number. Why is it that we continuously hear that Trudeau is failing Alberta and failing the oil industry and nobody ever mentions the Line 3 expansion built during the Trudeau government’s time in office. The government has had to work to overcome obstacles in Canada and the United States to get this to completion.
From a non-Alberta perspective, it seems like if people are frustrated, it should be with the oil companies who make huge profits and lay off tens of thousands of workers and with Provincial Conservatives who have squandered your resources over the last 40 years. That’s right, we heard you loud and clear in the 70s that the oil resources belonged to Alberta and not Canada. It’s one of the reasons we don’t have as much interest in exploiting every last drop as you do. 100% of oil royalties belong to the Province of Alberta.
Fair enough. Even though we have no stake in those revenues we are extremely frustrated by Conservative mismanagement. We look at Norway which took similar reserves and turned it into a $1 Trillion reserve fund that has made every person in Norway a millionaire and then we look at the Alberta Heritage Fund that has only $18 billion and wonder how you squandered it all.
We are amazed that Ralph Klein is a provincial hero when he literally bought people with their own money, giving $400 of ‘Ralph Bucks’ to Alberta residents...money that was earmarked for the heritage fund....money that would have meant $5 billion more for a rainy day in the heritage fund.
Non-Albertans get frustrated about the 100,000 orphan wells in your province that could cost taxpayers $70 billion to clean up because Conservative governments haven’t collected more than about $2 billion from companies to clean them up. We get frustrated that the environmental liability from the oil industry could be as high as $260 billion and you have no money set aside to clean it up. We get frustrated by plans to dump the tailings ponds directly into the Athabasca River because your “Clean” energy can’t be dealt with in a responsible or cost-effective way.
89% of electricity generated in your provinces comes from fossil fuels, 50% of the total is from coal. Jason Kenney stalled the plan to phase out coal and says no to a carbon tax. For people concerned about climate change and a future for their children, this is disturbing. It’s why people outside Alberta and Saskatchewan didn’t vote for Andrew Scheer. He had no climate change plan. Jason Kenney has no plan to deal with climate change. He doesn’t seem to care and that frustrates non-Albertans. Not only is he not trying but he’s playing political games thumbing his nose at the rest of Canada.
We get frustrated by politicians like Jason Kenney who know your province needs to diversify its economy, yet he froze the Alberta Investor Tax Credit, a program successful in attracting tech start-ups and then leaving them in a lurch when the credit is no longer available. This should be a provincial frustration, not something to be taken out on Trudeau. He didn’t freeze this program. Trudeau didn’t lower the minimum wage of youth workers and won’t reduce the wages of servers. That’s all Jason Kenney and that lowers wages across the board in the province.


Ok Alberta, we get that you are frustrated but so is the rest of Canada. We see that you have the highest incomes in all of Canada and an unemployment rate barely above the national average even as you come out of a recession and we wonder, what’s so bad?
We see that Conservative governments did very little to build pipelines over the decades but the moment there is an NDP government in Alberta and a Liberal government in Canada, the pipelines need to be built immediately and apparently everyone is out to get Alberta. And despite the fact Trudeau will have expanded pipeline capacity more than Conservatives did in half the time, you still complain the Federal government doesn’t care about Alberta.
Non-Albertans care about the environment but it doesn’t seem like the majority of Albertans give a damn and certainly aren’t prepared to do anything about it despite the fact your emissions are many times higher than the national average.
Ok Alberta, help us understand. What has the Federal government done that’s so bad you’re prepared to break up the country?

Last edited by Natnasci; 10-24-2019 at 12:38 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-24-2019, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,552,312 times
Reputation: 11937
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopygirlmi View Post
As an American - I have to wonder why if you want independence, then why don't you take up arms and tell the Feds no more and just start fighting for it? (The Revolution we put up a fight and won; the Civil War, the South didn't win after they put up a fight). So.........mixed success rate.

All this thread does is show me that Canadians really has a nicer culture (in some ways) than we do because when we don't get our way, we start shooting at people and start going over the top crazy on people......

A friend of mine from SK posted something with a similar theme this morning on Facebook about Western succession and this was my first thought. I'm not sure how I feel about "get the guns out" being my first thought.

It is what it is at the moment.
Ya, not our way.

I think the reason people just sit back and watch, is that after EVERY federal election, this talk of western separation comes up. It's just this time, it has a fancy new name Wexit. Not very original...but it is cute. Plus it goes back nearly a century.

"Western Canada has always had people calling for separation, he said, going back to the days when the region was known as the North-West Territories.

Some of that sense of alienation started off with the idea that the Prairies should have been a unified province. That was proposed by politician Frederick Haultain, the first premier of the territories, in 1904, when he called for the creation of a single unified Prairie province called Buffalo. "

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...tion-1.5289839

Also, it is a bit of a misnomer, in the fact that the most western province British Columbia, has no real separatist sentiments.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2019, 12:44 PM
 
7,489 posts, read 4,954,307 times
Reputation: 8031
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopygirlmi View Post
As an American - I have to wonder why if you want independence, then why don't you take up arms and tell the Feds no more and just start fighting for it? (The Revolution we put up a fight and won; the Civil War, the South didn't win after they put up a fight). So.........mixed success rate.

All this thread does is show me that Canadians really has a nicer culture (in some ways) than we do because when we don't get our way, we start shooting at people and start going over the top crazy on people......

A friend of mine from SK posted something with a similar theme this morning on Facebook about Western succession and this was my first thought. I'm not sure how I feel about "get the guns out" being my first thought.

It is what it is at the moment.
Canada does not have a "get the guns" culture to solve problems. Western Canada has spoken through election results. Prior to the election, Trudeau could pretend that everyone loved him and that the obliteration of Western Canada's resources does not impact the Canadian economy. Now he knows that half of Canada is disgusted with him.

The oil industry and economic prosperity has been destroyed by Trudeau. In the last round of equalization payments, Quebec had a surplus, Alberta had a deficit. Alberta still paid and Quebec still benefited. This was either an example of Trudeau trying to buy Quebec votes, or pretending that nothing has changed. Everything has changed, but Trudeau hides the truth with labels like whining Westerners and oil terrorists.

Even more pathetic is that the Prime Minister is now looking to mayors for support. Is he afraid of more sophisticated politicians? Will he consult with all mayors across the country, or only those who sing his praise? Other than Nenshi, what other mayors is he talking to?
"Trudeau said he has already spoken with Alberta Premier Jason Kenney and Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe, as well as other western politicians like Calgary Mayor Naheed Nenshi, to get the region’s issues in front of the government and bridge any political divides."
https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...n-in-on-nov-20
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2019, 01:08 PM
 
7,489 posts, read 4,954,307 times
Reputation: 8031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Not sure how accurate this is, it's from a Anything but Conservative FB page, but it does cover some of the ROC sentiments about Alberta.

<respectfully snipped>

Ok Alberta, help us understand. What has the Federal government done that’s so bad you’re prepared to break up the country?
You nailed it! Western Canadians are just a bunch of whiners and it's well deserved that they are knocked down and kicked around for a while.

If balancing the scales is what Canadians want, Albertans are all for it. When Quebec has a surplus and Alberta has a deficit, Quebec will pay into the federal coffers to subsidize Alberta with equalization payments. Alberta will reduce post-secondary tuition to equal Quebec tuition costs. Since Alberta's natural resources are handicapped by the federal government, then all Canadian resources, such as agriculture and forestry will be interfered with. Law must be passed that prevents the transportation of grain, milk, wood products and et cetera.

Let's do it! Equal treatment for all Canadians.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2019, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,552,312 times
Reputation: 11937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
You nailed it! Western Canadians are just a bunch of whiners and it's well deserved that they are knocked down and kicked around for a while.

If balancing the scales is what Canadians want, Albertans are all for it. When Quebec has a surplus and Alberta has a deficit, Quebec will pay into the federal coffers to subsidize Alberta with equalization payments. Alberta will reduce post-secondary tuition to equal Quebec tuition costs. Since Alberta's natural resources are handicapped by the federal government, then all Canadian resources, such as agriculture and forestry will be interfered with. Law must be passed that prevents the transportation of grain, milk, wood products and et cetera.

Let's do it! Equal treatment for all Canadians.
It is not my piece.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2019, 01:31 PM
 
7,489 posts, read 4,954,307 times
Reputation: 8031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
It is not my piece.
I know. It's a Facebook opinion that bashes provinces like Alberta with half truths and factual omissions. It appears to be written by an ignorant Easterner who feels happy when others have problems - the sort of person who laughs when someone is hurt after slipping on the ice.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2019, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,552,312 times
Reputation: 11937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
I know. It's a Facebook opinion that bashes provinces like Alberta with half truths and factual omissions. It appears to be written by an ignorant Easterner who feels happy when others have problems - the sort of person who laughs when someone is hurt after slipping on the ice.
The reason I posted it, was to get people reactions to it. So, please explain what half-truths, and factual omissions?

I did state I'm not sure how accurate it is, but I do believe that it does express, quite well, what many in the ROC feel towards Alberta.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2019, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Canada
14,735 posts, read 15,038,045 times
Reputation: 34871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Ya, not our way.

....... this time, it has a fancy new name Wexit. Not very original...but it is cute...... .

Every time I hear that word it makes me laugh because the sound of it makes me think of somebody asking to get a complete wax job done on their self. Ouch! Brexit always makes me think of Crispix breakfast cereal which I happen to like very much.
.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2019, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,882 posts, read 38,032,223 times
Reputation: 11650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
Every time I hear that word it makes me laugh because the sound of it makes me think of somebody asking to get a complete wax job done on their self. Ouch! .
.
Speaking from experience?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2019, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,882 posts, read 38,032,223 times
Reputation: 11650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post

The oil industry and economic prosperity has been destroyed by Trudeau. In the last round of equalization payments, Quebec had a surplus, Alberta had a deficit. Alberta still paid and Quebec still benefited. This was either an example of Trudeau trying to buy Quebec votes, or pretending that nothing has changed. Everything has changed, but Trudeau hides the truth with labels like whining Westerners and oil terrorists.

Holy cow. Where to start?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:28 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top