Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
A pipe dream perhaps but it would be a practical way of eliminating silly little enclaves that were created out of long past political decisions. What do others think?
I was just thinking about that the other day. Angle Inlet is a weird feature. How exactly did that happen?
I always thought Maine should be part of Canada. At least the northern part. The Quebec border with the USA is a straight line in one part then Maine rises up into Canada like a rhino horn. It was always such a pain in the ass driving from Quebec to Nova Scotia through New Brunswick. A drive straight through Maine would be much better, lol.
I was just thinking about that the other day. Angle Inlet is a weird feature. How exactly did that happen?
I always thought Maine should be part of Canada. At least the northern part. The Quebec border with the USA is a straight line in one part then Maine rises up into Canada like a rhino horn. It was always such a pain in the ass driving from Quebec to Nova Scotia through New Brunswick. A drive straight through Maine would be much better, lol.
According to How the States Got Their Shapes (2008) by Mark Stein, Angle Inlet was a result of the 1783 Treaty of Paris which states that the borders of the U.S. should begin at the northwest corner of the Lake of the Woods and then on a due west course to the Mississippi River. However, the Mississippi does not start as far north as the Lake of the Woods and so a later treaty delineated the border to be north/south of the 49th parallel due west from the Lake of the Woods. Because the northwest corner was north of the 49th parallel, the U.S. still got to keep it even though it clearly sticks out.
As for Maine according to the book, the Aroostook Valley, the part of Maine you'd like to short cut through to get to Nova Scotia from Quebec, was originally considered by Great Britain as their property, not the U.S.'s. The same Treaty of Paris in 1783 first delineated the border as stretching north from the St. Croix River to the highlands separating all rivers flowing into the St. Lawrence from those flowing into the Atlantic, and then west to the head of the Connecticut River. The Americans however, considered a greater portion of land - parts of present day Quebec and New Brunswick - as theirs. The dispute was not settled until the 1842 Webster-Ashburton Treaty which delineated the present Maine/Quebec/New Brunswick Border and giving Maine access to the St. John River.
So you see, it has been over a century since much of the border was delineated so theoretically why couldn't it change again? Sadly I just don't think our present day politicians on both sides have the balls to resolve land issues the way their long past predecessors did.
There is also Elm Point that is landlocked to Manitoba and a part of Rolette county of North Dakota accessible only to Canada.
Yes, you are right. Elm Point resulted in that same Northwest Angle/49th Parallel debate I had described in the post above. If you look closely at the map, the 49th parallel is to the north of Elm Point. Seriously, the two parties ought to have allowed a "jog" so that Great Britain could simply include Elm Point but then the two sides weren't really friends at that period and probably not willing to give up more than they could.
Is there a US customs & border patrol checkpoint, to drive in and out of Angle Inlet? I looked at google maps and zoomed in, but doesn't look like it. I see a fenced in observation tower near the access road. Many years ago, I saw a TV report where they showed what looked like a self-serve telephone booth where you called the nearest main border crossing between Minnesota and Manitoba.
A pipe dream perhaps but it would be a practical way of eliminating silly little enclaves that were created out of long past political decisions. What do others think?
The right term is exclaves. They are a tribute to our peaceful relations. It's a pity that Covid politics makes them further isolated.
According to How the States Got Their Shapes (2008) by Mark Stein, Angle Inlet was a result of the 1783 Treaty of Paris which states that the borders of the U.S. should begin at the northwest corner of the Lake of the Woods and then on a due west course to the Mississippi River. However, the Mississippi does not start as far north as the Lake of the Woods and so a later treaty delineated the border to be north/south of the 49th parallel due west from the Lake of the Woods. Because the northwest corner was north of the 49th parallel, the U.S. still got to keep it even though it clearly sticks out.
As for Maine according to the book, the Aroostook Valley, the part of Maine you'd like to short cut through to get to Nova Scotia from Quebec, was originally considered by Great Britain as their property, not the U.S.'s. The same Treaty of Paris in 1783 first delineated the border as stretching north from the St. Croix River to the highlands separating all rivers flowing into the St. Lawrence from those flowing into the Atlantic, and then west to the head of the Connecticut River. The Americans however, considered a greater portion of land - parts of present day Quebec and New Brunswick - as theirs. The dispute was not settled until the 1842 Webster-Ashburton Treaty which delineated the present Maine/Quebec/New Brunswick Border and giving Maine access to the St. John River.
So you see, it has been over a century since much of the border was delineated so theoretically why couldn't it change again? Sadly I just don't think our present day politicians on both sides have the balls to resolve land issues the way their long past predecessors did.
That would NEVER happen, at least on the American side. Although there are similarities between some of those areas ... same climate, etc., and although by American standards those areas are relatively liberal, they are still staunchly American. When the split happened 2 1/2 centuries ago, various factors contributed to different political and cultural attitudes. USA, although nearly universal in it's use of American English, has very different cultural underpinnings. The predominant cultural influence is actually German, not English. Canada has always had a closer relationship with Britain except for the Francophone portion. Over time, cultural underpinnings influence attitudes about all sorts of things. Americans consider every inch of American soil to be sacred (speaking in generalities here), and would never give up even an inch of it. Unlike Canada, they didn't have any European support in developing the land East to West, so the attitudes are different in that regard too. That is not to say one is better than the other. They are just different.
Now, you could certainly convince USA to consider purchasing some Canadian land, and there is definitely precedence for that sort of activity. Once part and parcel to the whole though, it would never be sacrificed.
That said, they are not anal retentive about disputes. They will never give up the claim to Machias Seal Island, for example, but they won't go to war with Canada for wanting to have a light house on that tiny piece of land in the Atlantic. They'll let them share it for usage. No harm, no foul.
As far as landlocked portions of USA that require going through Canada to get to other American locations, those would never be sacrificed either, but is that really any different than having to basically go through USA to get from Toronto to Halifax? Or it is different than Canadians in Toronto choosing to get to Vancouver via American Interstates instead of the comparatively rudimentary highways in Canada for making the same journey?
Last edited by Pond Gap; 05-16-2021 at 06:28 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
