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Do you think High Speed Rail is viable for Canada? Do you want this option for your country?
Canada's main population centers are all on relatively linear path. They are almost too close for jets, but too far for car. Vancouver to Calgary, to Regina, to Winnipeg is a good example. With a detour for Edmonton in there. Then there is the Windsor to QBC corridor. Maybe you can add in Halifax, and one more Maritime province stop. From Winnipeg, you can curl around the Great Lakes to GTA to connect whole country
It is basically a straight path unlike American Cities and they are almost spaced within the realm for HSR viability From what I read on Wiki, the idea has been thrown around. The Windsor to Quebec City has been proposed in the past. Via Rail which is the regular train service gets most of its customers in that very corridor. According the wiki it is in excess of 4 mil passengers annually. If that route was even faster, I can only imagine more will get on.
How much demand is there to get from Vancouver to Calgary/Edmonton, or from Winnipeg to Calgary, Vancouver, or Toronto? What I find unique about Via Rail is that it goes north into Windsor, Prince Rupert, Prince George, somewhere deep into Quebec too. If you do HSR, maybe throw in something for your northerly brethens and stick a north route from the major cities to Yukon/Whitehorse, Goose Bay, St John, Fort McMurray, Yellowknife etc etc. It can help develop those regions more.
You can always fly to next city over, but the trains give you more leg room, lounges, observation deck, dining cars, even showers, and more numerous toilets. Plane lavatories get nasty after so much use. If you get true HSR like plus 200mph, you still get there quickly. Even crossing the country, trains give you sleeper cars so you can get a comfortable sleep. Just take a night departure, have dinner on train, go to sleep wake next morning on the other side of country.
Its expensive, but you can always let the Chinese build it for you.
Edit, also with the cross country overnight ride, means you dont have to get up early to get to airport, or get fly mid day, and basically waste that whole day. Now you can fly at night, but planes dont give you a nice comfy bed unless you fly Emirates or First Class. Now roomettes, and sleeper cars are also expensive, but you can probably make all overnight ride sleepers and roomettes. Trains are bigger and can give more leg room. You can probably design coach class seats that recline more. More recline, better the sleep.
Last edited by NJ Brazen_3133; 09-25-2021 at 11:26 PM..
I loved travelling by train when I was younger. I don't use it anymore because the train from PG gets to Jasper hours after the train east has left. I'm not paying for 2 overnights in Jasper when I could get to Sk by car in the same amount of time or less if I drive.
Right now freight traffic has precedent over passenger trains. From PR to PG can take 17+ hours by train if they meet too much freight traffic along the way. High speed trains would need their own tracks. I would also think they would need to be elevated or something to minimize interactions with wildlife. Moose are often a problem as train tracks are easier travelling then deep snow.
Also population centres may be on a linear path but geography prevents the roads and rail tracks from being linear in most places.
I could see the possibility of viability for the proposed lines in the Wiki article you linked. There are already mass transit options between these areas because of high demand. Also the distances are relatively short from a Canadian point of view.
Along with the priorities of building up our military to enable the patrolling of our "longest in the world" shorelines and actually contributing in any worthwhile manner to NATO, maintaining single payer healthcare that EVERY government wants to underfund, giving government subsidies to day care and handouts to those having found out sitting on their butts at home is financially feasible while at the same time protesting every single thing from environment to health mandates to affordable housing; I don't see the mindset changing to the extent something like that would even be on the radar of the majority, or where a country of only 35 mil and the commensurate GDP can afford to worry about people who primarily travel out of country when they choose to travel at all.
Grumpy answer having been taken care of; just the fact that we are in debt up to our ears says "no" to any rail upgrading for the single purpose of "people moving" when our present rail system, used for both shipping and passenger has not shown itself profitable enough to support even the minimal of necessary infrastructure maintenance.
Do you think High Speed Rail is viable for Canada? Do you want this option for your country?
Canada's main population centers are all on relatively linear path. They are almost too close for jets, but too far for car. Vancouver to Calgary, to Regina, to Winnipeg is a good example. With a detour for Edmonton in there. Then there is the Windsor to QBC corridor. Maybe you can add in Halifax, and one more Maritime province stop. From Winnipeg, you can curl around the Great Lakes to GTA to connect whole country
It is basically a straight path unlike American Cities and they are almost spaced within the realm for HSR viability From what I read on Wiki, the idea has been thrown around. The Windsor to Quebec City has been proposed in the past. Via Rail which is the regular train service gets most of its customers in that very corridor. According the wiki it is in excess of 4 mil passengers annually. If that route was even faster, I can only imagine more will get on.
How much demand is there to get from Vancouver to Calgary/Edmonton, or from Winnipeg to Calgary, Vancouver, or Toronto? What I find unique about Via Rail is that it goes north into Windsor, Prince Rupert, Prince George, somewhere deep into Quebec too. If you do HSR, maybe throw in something for your northerly brethens and stick a north route from the major cities to Yukon/Whitehorse, Goose Bay, St John, Fort McMurray, Yellowknife etc etc. It can help develop those regions more.
You can always fly to next city over, but the trains give you more leg room, lounges, observation deck, dining cars, even showers, and more numerous toilets. Plane lavatories get nasty after so much use. If you get true HSR like plus 200mph, you still get there quickly. Even crossing the country, trains give you sleeper cars so you can get a comfortable sleep. Just take a night departure, have dinner on train, go to sleep wake next morning on the other side of country.
Its expensive, but you can always let the Chinese build it for you.
Edit, also with the cross country overnight ride, means you dont have to get up early to get to airport, or get fly mid day, and basically waste that whole day. Now you can fly at night, but planes dont give you a nice comfy bed unless you fly Emirates or First Class. Now roomettes, and sleeper cars are also expensive, but you can probably make all overnight ride sleepers and roomettes. Trains are bigger and can give more leg room. You can probably design coach class seats that recline more. More recline, better the sleep.
Not sure I get your " Its expensive, but you can always let the Chinese build it for you." remark. Is it a slag at the history of the railway in Canada where impoverished Chinese labourers were used? Or are you suggesting we let the Chinese government build our railway at a cost that gives away control over our own infrastructure ?
I don't see that happening.
Not only is it expensive, most of the routes you suggest are just not feasible. I've travelled a few times on high speed rail in Europe, and it's only high speed where the terrain allows it. A route from Vancouver eastwards is not suited for high speed rail. Too many mountain ranges, gorges, etc. As for Winnipeg westward, not enough passenger traffic to make it profitable. Same with the north. No one is going to want to invest in such a risky project.
As for train travel itself, I love travelling by train. Nice tourists trains are more likely to succeed, especially here in the west. Rocky Mountaineer is one, and VIA's Prestige Class is a better product than anything Amtrak offers. However it's expensive and aimed at tourists.
A better question is why the US hasn't build high speed rail? With a bigger population between city centres it just seems more feasible. That is why a link between Vancouver to San Diego makes more sense. The bit in Canada is something that Canada would most likely get behind.
As has been said, it is impractical between centres that people want to go between; and cost-inefficient between places that people don't tend to go between.
Vancouver to Calgary is impractical, because of the Rocky Mountains. Same for any rail route trying to get across the Canadian Shield in northern Ontario, to go from Winnipeg to Toronto or Montreal. Can they be done? Sure. But here's the real question: In how long will they pay for themselves? I don't know, but I'd guess fifty years, at least; the engineering challenges are that great. And that would be after ten years of construction, I'd guess. I've been there; the terrain is unforgiving. Solid, four-billion-year-old granite that they had a hard enough time getting existing roads and rail lines through. Hell, the Trans-Canada Highway, our only all-Canadian highway from coast-to-coast, wasn't completed until 1962, because of the Shield.
HSR might work in the Windsor-Quebec corridor; but even then, it would have to be seriously rejigged to get rid of the level crossings. As it is, it takes about five hours between Toronto and Montreal, which most people seem to be happy with.
As has been said, it is impractical between centres that people want to go between; and cost-inefficient between places that people don't tend to go between.
Vancouver to Calgary is impractical, because of the Rocky Mountains. Same for any rail route trying to get across the Canadian Shield in northern Ontario, to go from Winnipeg to Toronto or Montreal. Can they be done? Sure. But here's the real question: In how long will they pay for themselves? I don't know, but I'd guess fifty years, at least; the engineering challenges are that great. And that would be after ten years of construction, I'd guess. I've been there; the terrain is unforgiving. Solid, four-billion-year-old granite that they had a hard enough time getting existing roads and rail lines through. Hell, the Trans-Canada Highway, our only all-Canadian highway from coast-to-coast, wasn't completed until 1962, because of the Shield.
HSR might work in the Windsor-Quebec corridor; but even then, it would have to be seriously rejigged to get rid of the level crossings. As it is, it takes about five hours between Toronto and Montreal, which most people seem to be happy with.
In other words, Via Rail ain't broke. Why fix it?
Canada already has rail service going north as I stated already. The Windsor to QBC has business. I can only imagine it will increase if the service is faster and thereby more convenient. Is the Rockies the reason the Via Rail goes to Edmonton, Jasper, Kamloops and then Vancouver? Well, in that case you can build the HSR along same path then. Plus there is talk for HSR between Edmonton to Calgary to make up for that I guess.
Canada does not have an express line going cross country, but you do have slow rail connecting the major cities. If you are going to have rail and/or keep Via Rail going, then you may as well make it as fast as possible. Because for any rail to survive, it has to keep getting faster and more attractive to patrons.
Not sure I get your " Its expensive, but you can always let the Chinese build it for you." remark. Is it a slag at the history of the railway in Canada where impoverished Chinese labourers were used? Or are you suggesting we let the Chinese government build our railway at a cost that gives away control over our own infrastructure ?
I don't see that happening.
Not only is it expensive, most of the routes you suggest are just not feasible. I've travelled a few times on high speed rail in Europe, and it's only high speed where the terrain allows it. A route from Vancouver eastwards is not suited for high speed rail. Too many mountain ranges, gorges, etc. As for Winnipeg westward, not enough passenger traffic to make it profitable. Same with the north. No one is going to want to invest in such a risky project.
As for train travel itself, I love travelling by train. Nice tourists trains are more likely to succeed, especially here in the west. Rocky Mountaineer is one, and VIA's Prestige Class is a better product than anything Amtrak offers. However it's expensive and aimed at tourists.
A better question is why the US hasn't build high speed rail? With a bigger population between city centres it just seems more feasible. That is why a link between Vancouver to San Diego makes more sense. The bit in Canada is something that Canada would most likely get behind.
The Via Rail from Vancouver heading east goes north to Kamloops and then to Edmonton. Any HSR can take that path. There has been talk of an HSR between Edmonton and Calgary to make up for that I guess.
I too would like to travel by train because of the space, and the accommodations that will inevitably come with that space like beds and showers. And you can see the landscape up close and personal. Those are the reason I feel trains can compete with planes. The only issue is the speed. HSR should close that speed gap.
As for why USA does not have HSR. I think it is because we built up the potential lanes with other stuff before HSR was even imaginable. Now it is too late because acquiring the necessary lanes (real estate) is so expensive.
The rail lines we do have are not straight enough for HSR. This is because even when those old rails were built, there was so much development we had to go around it. Therefore breaking up the linear paths.
The Via Rail from Vancouver heading east goes north to Kamloops and then to Edmonton. Any HSR can take that path. There has been talk of an HSR between Edmonton and Calgary to make up for that I guess.
I too would like to travel by train because of the space, and the accommodations that will inevitably come with that space like beds and showers. And you can see the landscape up close and personal. Those are the reason I feel trains can compete with planes. The only issue is the speed. HSR should close that speed gap.
As for why USA does not have HSR. I think it is because we built up the potential lanes with other stuff before HSR was even imaginable. Now it is too late because acquiring the necessary lanes (real estate) is so expensive.
The rail lines we do have are not straight enough for HSR. This is because even when those old rails were built, there was so much development we had to go around it. Therefore breaking up the linear paths.
I don't think you know the area. I used to work for VIA rail in the days that we used both the old CPR and CN tracks. The tracks follow gorges and rivers, which are very twisty, and in some parts have just enough land for the tracks, and the river below.
This is on the CP line, but gives an example of some of the challenges. Yes that is ONE freight train.
Also VIA does not own the tracks. Having VIA build it's own tracks is impossible since it would have to buy up land along a 1,500 K corridor, ( this is the Vancouver to Edmonton part ) working with all levels of government and First Nations. That alone would take billions and decades to do. You say it's too expensive for the US to buy up the necessary land, well the same is true in Canada.
I doubt CN would go for upgrading their tracks for HSR, but even if they did, the charge to VIA would make VIA less viable as a business.
Switzerland built a bit of high speed rail, with the Gotthard Base Tunnel cost over 15 billion CAD., for just that tunnel and 30 billion for the whole project. A line that is only 137 K's. Do you honestly think building high speed rail with many more challenges than in Switzerland along a 1,500 K path is economically feasible? Not only the cost but the returns. Not enough people live in the area to use it and the demand to go to Edmonton is not there. Tourist who do this route go for the views and the relaxed pace.
Is the Rockies the reason the Via Rail goes to Edmonton, Jasper, Kamloops and then Vancouver? Well, in that case you can build the HSR along same path then.
The reason is that Via travels mainly on CN tracks. It leases running rights, and has been able to negotiate a reasonable per-mile rate from CN. CP is willing to lease its tracks to Via, but has stated that it would charge more than CN does. So, on the 2800-milke trip from Toronto to Vancouver, I'd guess that Via's The Canadian runs on less than 10 miles of CP track, and that mostly in Vancouver.
Generally speaking, CN operates more northerly routes in Canada, while CP operates more southern routes. So, Via, following CN trackage, goes through Edmonton--and Saskatoon, and serves a bunch of tiny settlements in northern Ontario. Back in the days of CP's passenger service, it, naturally, ran on CP tracks; serving Calgary, Regina, Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie. CP served larger places, and had the most scenic routes. That 24 hours of northern Ontario muskeg on The Canadian is pretty boring.
Note that Toronto and Winnipeg have union stations, that both CN and CP shared.
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Plus there is talk for HSR between Edmonton to Calgary to make up for that I guess.
There has been talk for years, and even a few studies, but nothing beyond that. Every time the subject comes up, it gets shouted down by those who don't want to pay for something they have no intention of using. Remember, not everybody in Alberta lives in Calgary and Edmonton.
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