U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-27-2022, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,722 posts, read 33,889,011 times
Reputation: 10794

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
I feel like choice or no choice can be a bit of a distraction. Bisexuals don't get a choice as to whether they are bisexual, and even if they only ever pursue the opposite gender, they often need to come to terms with internalized hemophobia and the effects of growing up not quite fitting right in a heteronormative world. That said, they do get to make choices about who to be with, and can choose to nurture parts of their sexuality or neglect them.

Saying that being gay is okay because gay people had no choice implies that if they did have a choice choosing someone of the same gender would be bad, or at least worse, then choosing someone of the opposite. Ultimately, there's no reason that would be true, just as there's no reason a heterosexual choosing a partner who can't have kids over one that can is worse. Love is always a choice, and its always the right one.

I don't really have much in the way of concerns about the community in Canada. That you get some extreme individuals in the Pride Societies that seem like the most prominent LGBTQ+ institutions in the country feels par for the course, you get the same situations in everything from student unions to political parties, feels like human nature. Gender is pretty weird, hard to navigate for many people. I admit to some trepidation about whether minors who are still figuring themselves out are mature enough to make decisions about permanent transition surgery. I am torn between an instinct against medical paternalism, and certainly against government mandated medical paternalism, and feeling like we ethically draw a line somewhere, similar to how teens can consent to major medical decisions at certain ages in some cases but there are more rigorous standards for other types of decisions, such as choosing to die etc. The fight for transgender rights has needed to be so fierce, that I worry admitting to some nuance has become impossible by sad necessity, such as that not everyone talking about transitioning really should, which is why some people do end up transitioning back. I worry about that in the context of teenagers.
This is a good post.

You accurately point out that certain medical or health matters (especially of a sexual nature) can be dealt with behind the backs of parents, as young as around 13.

The classic example being girls going on the pill, though in some cases even abortions could be made available without parents knowing.

I won't produce a research paper on it (I know some will ask for "proof") but there is ample evidence out there that the trans community is pushing for various gender-related treatments to be similarly exempted from parental authority, intervention and even knowledge. Even for kids that aren't even close to puberty.

Not saying it goes as far as surgery but most definitely psychological treatments (which some argue can push kids in one direction or another) and even drugs like puberty blockers, are the types of things involved here.

(I mentioned surgery not being on the table, though some also even argue that one shouldn't have to wait until 18 to have surgery...)
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-27-2022, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,722 posts, read 33,889,011 times
Reputation: 10794
For the record, I should say that nothing in particular bothers me about trans people or even the community itself, but it's more certain angles that have recently been chosen to be pushed on hard by certain activists either in the community or perhaps people who aren't even trans themselves but claim to be acting on behalf of all of them.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-27-2022, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,330 posts, read 13,544,469 times
Reputation: 4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM View Post
I feel like choice or no choice can be a bit of a distraction. Bisexuals don't get a choice as to whether they are bisexual, and even if they only ever pursue the opposite gender, they often need to come to terms with internalized hemophobia and the effects of growing up not quite fitting right in a heteronormative world. That said, they do get to make choices about who to be with, and can choose to nurture parts of their sexuality or neglect them.

Saying that being gay is okay because gay people had no choice implies that if they did have a choice choosing someone of the same gender would be bad, or at least worse, then choosing someone of the opposite. Ultimately, there's no reason that would be true, just as there's no reason a heterosexual choosing a partner who can't have kids over one that can is worse. Love is always a choice, and its always the right one.

I don't really have much in the way of concerns about the community in Canada. That you get some extreme individuals in the Pride Societies that seem like the most prominent LGBTQ+ institutions in the country feels par for the course, you get the same situations in everything from student unions to political parties, feels like human nature. Gender is pretty weird, hard to navigate for many people. I admit to some trepidation about whether minors who are still figuring themselves out are mature enough to make decisions about permanent transition surgery. I am torn between an instinct against medical paternalism, and certainly against government mandated medical paternalism, and feeling like we ethically draw a line somewhere, similar to how teens can consent to major medical decisions at certain ages in some cases but there are more rigorous standards for other types of decisions, such as choosing to die etc. The fight for transgender rights has needed to be so fierce, that I worry admitting to some nuance has become impossible by sad necessity, such as that not everyone talking about transitioning really should, which is why some people do end up transitioning back. I worry about that in the context of teenagers.
This is a very good post actually! I do agree with you that choice or no choice it should be irrelevant. That said, I feel as though a lot of people, particularly straight would be less inclined to render judgement against other minority sexual groups knowing that in fact, it wasn't a 'loosy goosy' choice that was so easily influenced, and that it was something fundamentally entrenched in the person from a genetic/biological perspective. Look to history including recent how the LGBTQ community has been treated by the hetero majority in pretty much every society and it not hard to see why. I feel like even with all the advancements in western societies, we are still very much a misunderstood group. I posted an article in here that delves into the complexity of sexuality both Straight/gay and in between and there is no one single contributor. It is a multitude of biological, genetic and environmental factors.

As for the transitioning part. There is also evidence that this is biological/hormonal whereby the person is physically born a sex, but mentally develop with the opposite due to influences in the womb. I also posted a link to that study. Again no easy answers and I don't know the 'right' age for such surgeries. That said, it shouldn't be done until there is a thorough medical eval across the board and done in consultation with all parties, including the parents if they are minors.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-27-2022, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,330 posts, read 13,544,469 times
Reputation: 4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
For the record, I should say that nothing in particular bothers me about trans people or even the community itself, but it's more certain angles that have recently been chosen to be pushed on hard by certain activists either in the community or perhaps people who aren't even trans themselves but claim to be acting on behalf of all of them.
Fair enough. I probably wouldn't agree with certain angles either. I think you also have to look at a group that is highly stigmatized, traumatized and judged harshly by society as a whole is going to be collectively more on the 'sensitive' side.

I mean imagine being one walking down the street. Especially those that are not fully convincing (some are shockingly convincing and other not so much) - dealing with all the comments. We take for granted going to the store and being relatively 'anonymous' but not so much them. That is why I invite everyone to put on their empathy shoes.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-27-2022, 01:26 PM
 
9,204 posts, read 3,675,463 times
Reputation: 2940
I live in a small conservative city hence any gay pride parade would be tame by nature. If a parade is raunchy no one is forced to watch it.

I support any group that has been infairly treated by the rest of society. The more rights they can earn the better we all are I do not mean just legal rightd but the right to be part of mainstream society.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-27-2022, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,728 posts, read 8,053,227 times
Reputation: 9398
I'd like to point out that sex is biological. Sexual preference is something else. I'm not even taking issue with adults who transition but the practice of deciding girls who like to play with boys' toys or boys who like to play dress-up in princess costumes are children trapped in the body of the opposite sex and should be started on hormones before they hit puberty should be a crime.

I played with dolls and trucks. I dressed up as princesses and cowboys. I have pictures of my brothers probably around 5 years old dressing up in dresses and looking like they feel quite pretty.

I know a true intersex person, with male and female parts, whose biological sex was determined by whatever kind of test it is that they use. DNA?

I also know of this boy, David Reimer, a Mennonite boy. Famous case of what not to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_...20in%20infancy.

Although he was raised as a girl, his biological sex kept reasserting itself. You can't just chop off parts and turn someone into the opposite sex. https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spr...different.html

I am only bothered by these things and those who would insist trans women/men are the same as biological women/men.

Feelings are not facts. There was a white woman, a prof, who made a career out of pretending she was black. Her excuse later was that she "identified" as black. The black community was not okay with this.
However much sympathy you may have for black history, as a white person, it is not in your bones, in your blood, that you just get to say you feel like you are a black person trapped in a white body.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...rge-washington

There was a similar case in Saskatchewan, in which a white woman made a career out of pretending to be indigenous. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...igns-1.6473964

I, as a woman, who had period pain, breasts that boys stared at, who was groped, who has been date raped ( there wasn't a word for it then - I only knew something was wrong, I had not consented), who has been discriminated against in job fields, who has been talked over, who has experienced the pain of a miscarriage, who has never had a living child, who always had to mentally weigh my slight size in terms of where I went, because a man 5'3" and 110 pounds, has greater natural strength than I have.

I am not saying trans people haven't been discriminated against. I am saying they have their story and women have theirs.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-27-2022, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,722 posts, read 33,889,011 times
Reputation: 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
I'd like to point out that sex is biological. Sexual preference is something else. I'm not even taking issue with adults who transition but the practice of deciding girls who like to play with boys' toys or boys who like to play dress-up in princess costumes are children trapped in the body of the opposite sex and should be started on hormones before they hit puberty should be a crime.

I played with dolls and trucks. I dressed up as princesses and cowboys. I have pictures of my brothers probably around 5 years old dressing up in dresses and looking like they feel quite pretty.

I know a true intersex person, with male and female parts, whose biological sex was determined by whatever kind of test it is that they use. DNA?

I also know of this boy, David Reimer, a Mennonite boy. Famous case of what not to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_...20in%20infancy.

Although he was raised as a girl, his biological sex kept reasserting itself. You can't just chop off parts and turn someone into the opposite sex. https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spr...different.html

I am only bothered by these things and those who would insist trans women/men are the same as biological women/men.

Feelings are not facts. There was a white woman, a prof, who made a career out of pretending she was black. Her excuse later was that she "identified" as black. The black community was not okay with this.
However much sympathy you may have for black history, as a white person, it is not in your bones, in your blood, that you just get to say you feel like you are a black person trapped in a white body.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...rge-washington

There was a similar case in Saskatchewan, in which a white woman made a career out of pretending to be indigenous. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...igns-1.6473964

I, as a woman, who had period pain, breasts that boys stared at, who was groped, who has been date raped ( there wasn't a word for it then - I only knew something was wrong, I had not consented), who has been discriminated against in job fields, who has been talked over, who has experienced the pain of a miscarriage, who has never had a living child, who always had to mentally weigh my slight size in terms of where I went, because a man 5'3" and 110 pounds, has greater natural strength than I have.

I am not saying trans people haven't been discriminated against. I am saying they have their story and women have theirs.
You're making a lot of posts I could make myself these days.

I admit I've also been wondering why, if a man can wake up one morning and announce that they are in fact a woman and everyone must bow down to that and say "yah, that's a woman", why a person like Rachel Dolezal cannot be black?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-27-2022, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
25,722 posts, read 33,889,011 times
Reputation: 10794
Also, I know that this runs against the current thinking but I don't think that it's an "open bar" as to what constitutes discrimination and what is reasonable in terms of accommodation and what isn't. How can society function when we are all allowed to unilaterally decide what we want and everyone (including institutions) needs to be abide by it - or else.

As an example, some of the demands we are hearing that are rather extreme, if not met, will allegedly force more trans people to commit suicide. Yes, I realize that suicide rates are sky-high in that community, but somehow I find it hard to believe that not allowing untransitioned males who identify as females into women only sports categories will push a whole bunch of people over the edge. Or that non-transitioned males identifying as women again need to be welcomed in women's spas and change rooms, lest we again see a horrible spike in trans suicides.

If people are going to commit suicide over such things, these specific matters are probably far from their biggest psychological problem.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-27-2022, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,330 posts, read 13,544,469 times
Reputation: 4269
There are distinct biological differences between men and women. The environmental aspects are something else. In some societies for example, they could in theory convey that a masculine form is a pink dress. What it looks like in the science of trans is that they are born with the physical aspects of one sex, but the mental of another. It is blurred. What happens environmentally from there is not linked to the biological and is more linked to the society in which the person was born.

How this is a threat to men or women who fully associate their sex as M or F is beyond me. This is a unique medical phenomenon that occurs in about 1 to 1.5 percent of the population.

For those so inclined, read up about gender dysphoria.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-27-2022, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Toronto
13,330 posts, read 13,544,469 times
Reputation: 4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
You're making a lot of posts I could make myself these days.

I admit I've also been wondering why, if a man can wake up one morning and announce that they are in fact a woman and everyone must bow down to that and say "yah, that's a woman", why a person like Rachel Dolezal cannot be black?
A fine example of whataboutism.. My Nigerian friend introduced me to that and i'm happy for his insight.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Canada
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2022, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top