Canadians: Tell us how you feel about your health care. (how much, attorney)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by grmasterb

Thanks for the tax freedom analogy. That was helpful. When I was referring to effective rate I meant the income tax rate after deductions. For example, in the U.S. I'm in the 25% marginal bracket, but I pay less than 25% of my income in federal income tax because of decuctions and tax credits. And, yes, I have noticed that when you combine GST and PST in Canana it can get pretty substantial, although it's still less than the VAT in most European countries.

Factoring deductions is tricky since they vary so much from person to person. The 40% figure for income tax in Canada is based on average deductions (which is to say not too many) in an average Canadian province. I live in Quebec which is a high-tax jurisdiction but my rate is lower than those posted for my province and my income level because I have lots of deductions for stuff like dependent children, daycare, day camps, public transit use, kids’ physical activities, etc.

I know someone who lives in Ontario who, based on his salary and average deductions should be paying around 40% in income tax but who says he brings it down to around 15%(!) by contributing massively to RRSPs (registered retirement savings plans that yield impressive tax savings). Since he has no pension plan where he works, he has to buy the RRSPs anyway to fund his retirement, but I think he may exaggerating a bit...

[avironneur]

I have lived in two provices and many states in the US and here is my take on it in a few sentences:

The quality in the United States is far above and beyond anything I have experienced here, no question. Now given that I am still repaying bills from an insurance I had in the United States last year and that I am unable to qualify for individual health insurance anymore due to the condition that prompted said surgery, I would be terrified to be without group health insurance from my employer in the US right now.

Quebec's healthcare system was truly miserable and access was difficult and consisted primarily of resorting to private walk-in clinics or the CLTC, the provincial equivalent of a walk-in clinic.

Ontario's system is better and facilities are much cleaner and better maintained and equipment seems newer although access is also a problem and wait times can be long for non-essential procedures BUT I will never be faced with the prospect of going bankrupt because the hospital required a test or procedure that my insurance did not cover or because I simply did not have insurance or coulld not afford COBRA coverage...the system in the United States has produced amazing advances in medical technology but access needs to be dramatically improved as does funding for those who cannot afford to participate in the system.

I feel safer here

[Belinda_Cooperstone]

I have not read all the posts (sorry) but regardless of the AMOUNT of drs we have I would rather Canadian health care, because it is nice to know that if you are in a dire situation they are not waiting for you to fill out forms to make sure you can afford the care, there are no forms to fill, hand over your health card and be on your way. We do not pay our DRs what the Americans do and as a result we are losing them. It is not our health care that sucks it is really good, we just do not have the DRs to fill in, so pay our DRs more so they do not leave and we will be ok.

[sunshineleith]

I am satisfied with the healthcare system here. I like the fact that I have never seen a medical bill for anything. I have given birth to two babies, my daughter was hospitalised for a week with croup, my father had double-bypass surgery - no idea how much any of that cost - it isn't an issue.

My ex-brother-in-law lives in Boston and works as a labourer (drywall). He sprained his ankle last year. He has no healthcare. He couldn't afford to see a doctor. Say what you like about our higher taxes and wait times, that scenario is appalling.

I am sure there are pros and cons to every system. I'll keep ours.

[rifleman]

I now live in the US, am well covered and taken care of, on Medicare due to a disability condition, but was also employed by several large corporations for over 25 years here. The quality of service in the US is exemplary. Not so when I and my family lived in Vancouver, and to this day, my very elderly father (97) is suffering from the lax and careless attitude of the tax-financed Canadian system.

Originally Posted by nuala

I lived and worked in Boston for a while. Had company health plan (a software company), so going to a doctor wasn't too hard on the pocket (except for dentists, for some reason they always asked you to pay a considerable amount on top of what HMO covered).

HMOs weighted heavily though on the concsience - they have become a billion dollar industry, and are they needed at all? I guess a good idea initially has overgrown into a monster.

You're absolutely right. Greed, in any country, breeds problems. Now, though, they may have their come-uppance in the US with Obama. Perhaps, though, he'll go too far, and try to mimic the failed, near-bankrupt Canadian system. Let's hope not!

I would dread to be in the States though during child-bearing stage or during unemployment periods. I had children in Canada, and didn't have to pay anything.

Oh yes you did, nuala. Taxes, taxes, taxes. Plus mediocre technology options. You may not have thought so, but you need to visit a modern US hospital to accurately compare. Hearsay doesn't cover it. My wife had some difficulties during delivery in California, in a hospital serving a very "diverse" community. Nothing special. No premiums paid for good service. And yet the systems and specialists available were absolutely amazing. Not so with her pregnancy in Vancouver, where a major error was made, and no-one was ever held accountable..

Modern equipment, modern ICU unit in case there is a problem with a baby. You are denied small perks unless you have additional coverage - like after labor you would be put into a common room with 5 other mothers, versus a private room. Those are small things though in the big scheme of things. I do have additional Blue Cross coverage for $107 a month that would ensure a private room, critical illness care, dental (dentists are not covered under public health plan), and drug coverage.

The total insurance premium, paid by my employer, for our family of 4, for medical, dental, vision and Rx, was $600/mo. That's $150 per each family member. The coverage included a no-copay visit to The Mayo (spectacular service and available technology!). Glasses, tooth cavities filled, prescriptions. Some minor co-pays, but mostly in the 5% range. Overall my annual outpayments came to far less than the difference in US versus Canadian taxes. Of course my employer paid my premiums, but that is quite common in the US.

YES, I feel the difference with the States in the way family doctors are rushed-rushed-rushed. (Can't say that of the hospital doctors, they take their time to talk to you). You feel that you have to see a family doctor only if there is a serious reason, otherwise they don't have time for you. Those warnings everywhere "talk to your doctor about this or that" are a joke here. But moderation is the key? - Maybe US doctors are spending time on "talks" just for the billing purposes?

Nope. They are also businessmen, just like Canadian doctors. If they take too long, the buzzer goes off, and they don't make any more money on a specific patient. It's not a "greed-for all" down here! Remember, your media hates the US and their biases are obvious and frequent.

The US Corporate Insurance biz is an ugly money-grubbing monster. More or less like the Canadian government. They just buy votes up there with The Baby bonus and "FREE!!!" health care.

But if you are seriously ill, the help will be there for you, no questions asked. That's why I prefer Canadian health care to that in the US.

Ditto here. Just an unknown factoid, nicely ignored by the Canadian media.

Originally Posted by Houston3

Do you pay for it thru a tax? If so how much does it cost say someone making $75,000.00 a year U.S.?

As was detailed by others above, you surely do pay for it, more, on average, than an employed person pays here. But you just think it's "Free". What, exactly, is "FREE" in any government program anywhere? Delusion is free I suppose...

Originally Posted by Wendy11

I would not want to live in the American health system, because even if I had insurance or could afford it, it creates a society that is inhuman - where people have to choose between a car and an operation, or where the poor don't get as good service and maybe then spread disease?

Inhuman? Quite an erroneous observation, actually. You're listening to the biased media and the blowhards who will denegrate "The US" given ANY opportunity. The laws of most states REQUIRE that they treat anyone who arrives at a hospital in need, regardless of ability to pay. Unfortunately, the illegal immigrants have taken advantage of our generosity in this regard.

Canadian health care is generally pretty good - Toronto is terrible because the city services in general are overloaded, and alot of well off people don't want to live in T.O. anymore (like doctors).

You do sort of contradict yourself, all in one sentence, don't you? Your observation about Toronto (which is crowded with a lot of immigrants now, overloading the healthcare system's limited budget to the point of bankruptcy, BTW) also applies to Vancouver, Calgary, and Winnipeg.

I wish our system was more like it used to be where there was a kind of government run insurance, where people paid a monthly premium, like about 300 a month (based on income) and then everything was covered.

My wife's first pregnancy in Vancouver ended in a miscarriage, fortunately very early in the process. The doctors did nothing relating to her Rh- condition, though it was clearly on her report. It took my mother over 6 mo to get a much-needed MRI in Vancouver in 1995. Recently my dad suffered for 15 hours before getting a simple procedure. An 8 hour wait in a suburb of Vancouver just to get an Ambulance ride to the hospital, plus a wait in the hallway, on a hard Gurney, in writhing pain, for another 7 hours. A new shift nurse said "Oh my gosh, sir! Here, I'll fix that right now!" and then did so. In about 4 minutes.

In the US, the resulting lawsuit, if one were treated this badly, would be more than appropriate, and would act as an object lesson to the lax attitude of the Canadian hospital and ambulance union workers, some of whom are receiving almost the same renumeration ($$$) that a Canadian GP doctor is allowed to take. That's right, "allowed". It's all in the hands of your government health care administrator. The People's Health Care System. Since when has any government agency, ever, been efficient?

Originally Posted by sunshineleith

I am satisfied with the healthcare system here. I like the fact that I have never in my entire life seen a bill for anything.

Oh yes you have, sunshine! Your taxes are significantly higher, always were, and always will be. And your government then gets to decide, through their payment schedule to doctors and hospitals, the level of care and the availability of technology you'll receive.

I was not getting good diagnoses of a complicated set of overlapping conditions in my past, and I was easily able to visit The Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Arizona, with no additional cost to me. Suffice to say, the technology that was made available to the doctors who attended to me, plus their sincere attention to my problems, and the "no rush" approach, was truly spectacular. Incidentally, they also got it right, to my relief.

Canadians (I of course was one once, but fled the socialism, which is at the heart of this discussion in fact) have few opportunities to compare treatment. They, as my 97 year old father who has been in the hospital often recently, equate "good health care" with simply having survived.

But when I've visited him in the hospital up there, I've been enraged at the cavalier attitude, the poor attention to detail, and the mediocre, and often dangerous, reliance on old technology. Doctors in Canada provide service and a level of attention that reflects how they are treated, and how they are paid, and finally the technologies made available to them.

The problem in the US is one of transportability when you are laid off, when you develop some medical condition, and the money-grubbing health uber-biz no longer wants you around. The Federal government here should, and soon will, level that playing field, and we'll have the very best health care system in the world.

Otherwise, when you are employed by most companies in the US, your health care is very comprehensive. Of course the "new economy", in both countries, will change all of this; we may well be visiting the cave mouth entrance of the witch doctor within the next few years....

[cityboy2]

Originally Posted by rifleman

I now live in the US, am well covered and taken care of, on Medicare due to a disability condition, but was also employed by several large corporations for over 25 years here. The quality of service in the US is exemplary. Not so when I and my family lived in Vancouver, and to this day, my very elderly father (97) is suffering from the lax and careless attitude of the tax-financed Canadian system.



Ditto here. Just an unknown factoid, nicely ignored by the Canadian media.



As was detailed by others above, you surely do pay for it, more, on average, than an employed person pays here. But you just think it's "Free". What, exactly, is "FREE" in any government program anywhere? Delusion is free I suppose...



My wife's first pregnancy in Vancouver ended in a miscarriage, fortunately very early in the process. The doctors did nothing relating to her Rh- condition, though it was clearly on her report. It took my mother over 6 mo to get a much-needed MRI in Vancouver in 1995. Recently my dad suffered for 15 hours before getting a simple procedure. An 8 hour wait in a suburb of Vancouver just to get an Ambulance ride to the hospital, plus a wait in the hallway, on a hard Gurney, in writhing pain, for another 7 hours. A new shift nurse said "Oh my gosh, sir! Here, I'll fix that right now!" and then did so. In about 4 minutes.

In the US, the resulting lawsuit, if one were treated this badly, would be more than appropriate, and would act as an object lesson to the lax attitude of the Canadian hospital and ambulance union workers, some of whom are receiving almost the same renumeration ($$$) that a Canadian GP doctor is allowed to take. That's right, "allowed". It's all in the hands of your government health care administrator. The People's Health Care System. Since when has any government agency, ever, been efficient?



Oh yes you have, sunshine! Your taxes are significantly higher, always were, and always will be. And your government then gets to decide, through their payment schedule to doctors and hospitals, the level of care and the availability of technology you'll receive.

I was not getting good diagnoses of a complicated set of overlapping conditions in my past, and I was easily able to visit The Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Arizona, with no additional cost to me. Suffice to say, the technology that was made available to the doctors who attended to me, plus their sincere attention to my problems, and the "no rush" approach, was truly spectacular. Incidentally, they also got it right, to my relief.

Canadians (I of course was one once, but fled the socialism, which is at the heart of this discussion in fact) have few opportunities to compare treatment. They, as my 97 year old father who has been in the hospital often recently, equate "good health care" with simply having survived.

But when I've visited him in the hospital up there, I've been enraged at the cavalier attitude, the poor attention to detail, and the mediocre, and often dangerous, reliance on old technology. Doctors in Canada provide service and a level of attention that reflects how they are treated, and how they are paid, and finally the technologies made available to them.

The problem in the US is one of transportability when you are laid off, when you develop some medical condition, and the money-grubbing health uber-biz no longer wants you around. The Federal government here should, and soon will, level that playing field, and we'll have the very best health care system in the world.

Otherwise, when you are employed by most companies in the US, your health care is very comprehensive. Of course the "new economy", in both countries, will change all of this; we may well be visiting the cave mouth entrance of the witch doctor within the next few years....

This is a very exhausting email bashing our northern neighbors health plan. It would be much easier if you would just openly say that you're jealous. I know I am!

[sunshineleith]

Originally Posted by rifleman

Oh yes you have, sunshine! Your taxes are significantly higher, always were, and always will be. And your government then gets to decide, through their payment schedule to doctors and hospitals, the level of care and the availability of technology you'll receive....

Doctors in Canada provide service and a level of attention that reflects how they are treated, and how they are paid, and finally the technologies made available to them.

Please DO NOT misquote me. I said I have never seen a MEDICAL BILL for anything. Are my taxes higher than yours? Undoubtedly. Do we, as a socialist country, hand over our money to the government to have it managed for us? Yep. That's what socialism is about. I like socialism.

I said I was satisfied with our medical system. I have always had excellent medical care. Could it be better? Probably. What in life couldn't be better?

Originally Posted by rifleman

The problem in the US is one of transportability when you are laid off, when you develop some medical condition, and the money-grubbing health uber-biz no longer wants you around. .

Bingo. You made my point. That stress does not exist in Canada. You are covered. Rich or poor, employed or unemployed, you walk into a hospital and you GET TREATMENT. They don't send you down the street. It isn't a healthcare caste-system like it is in the USA.

I have a number of relatives in the USA and I have seen firsthand the stress that they are under due to healthcare concerns. Basic healthcare is a given in Canada. It isn't something you have to worry about. Despite its shortcomings, I would bet that the vast majority of Canadians would not trade it for the "the richer you are the better care you get" healthcare system of the USA.

And don't even get me started on what a complete insult the "maternity leave" is in the USA.....greatest nation on earth gives new parents a whopping six weeks of mat leave? Pathetic.

[nuala]

I agree with sunshineleith up above.

The personal taxes here are higher, but when you factor in the money that Americans need to pay for their health insurance (either through their place of work, or privately), plus pay 100% for those procedures that are not covered by any insurance, how would these outlays and our taxes compare?

Besides, what value would you put on the psychological aspect of having or not having health coverage?

Just imagine having to care for anyone in your family. If you as a caregiver have to quit your job, you will have maybe COBRA for 1 year, and then you are all on your own.

I know a person in USA who developed a health problem that requires several surgeries. He had to quit his job originally, but managed to purchase private insurance. Every year his out-of-pocket insurance pay is revised and is now $600 a month. Every year, he has to lay out $15,000 for surgeries before they will pay the rest. (and his is not a life-threatening condition at all, just an internal organ disease)

How about self-employed people, who decided to cut the cord and live their dream instead of waiting for the retirement years? Not many would jump into that, even though for some it would be the most liberating thing to do in their lifetime.

How about peopel saying "I went to the ER and they ran tests, and now I'm stuck with $6,500 bill for those tests".

A mother who knows that it would be the best for her kids if she was with them for the first 1-4 years of their lives, can't do that, she has to go back to work.

In short, only if you have a job, you feel safe in terms of health coverage. And that creates another monster - if the job is lost, it's much more psychologically than a lost job, it's an avalanche of problems.

rifleman - you have an advantage though over the Americans - if you lose a job, you can get back to Canada and use the universal care, while they can't do that.

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by cityboy2

This is a very exhausting email bashing our northern neighbors health plan. It would be much easier if you would just openly say that you're jealous. I know I am!

Bashing? You know, folks, I only made a few point-by-point comments. You'd think this was over on the Religion & Philosophy threads! Golly. I certainly allowed as how there were many faults with the US system, and you guys all yell "BINGO!". as if I'd been forced to admit something down in Guantanimo!

What? You wanted me or anyone to just smarm on about how wonderful and beyond ANY reproach your system is? You know, Canadians are altogether too obedient to The Government Line. (I still am one, BTW, if I so choose, and I know how "we" think. In my case, "thought") Sigh.

So, I must conclude that I was baited unless I agreed with the mob mentality. Apparently, you can't really have a quiet conversation here, right? And you Canadians really do harbor (I'm sorry, harbour...) unjustified hatred of all things American. How sad!

Originally Posted by sunshineleith

Please DO NOT misquote me. I said I have never seen a MEDICAL BILL for anything. Are my taxes higher than yours? Undoubtedly. Do we, as a socialist country, hand over our money to the government to have it managed for us? Yep. That's what socialism is about. I like socialism.

Actually, sunny, I responded to your exact quote, which was that you "never paid ANYTHING". Go back and check. What, exactly, did I "misquote"? Say again? Thought so.

And apparently, yes, you do like (love?) socialism. Look what it's done for Kanada. Productivity (your dollar's worth compared to the gold standard. Note that I didn't get all arrogant and say The Almighty Yankee Dollar. Just good old precious-metal gold, like in a Canadian Maple Leaf, of which I luckily own quite a few...). Much lower than our dollar by oh, let's look... 21% today. Nice.

I said I was satisfied with our medical system. I have always had excellent medical care. Could it be better? Probably. What in life couldn't be better?

And I apparently am not to be allowed to disagree or offer some critique points, eh?

Bingo. You made my point. That stress does not exist in Canada. You are covered. Rich or poor, employed or unemployed, you walk into a hospital and you GET TREATMENT. They don't send you down the street. It isn't a healthcare caste-system like it is in the USA.

I was trying to agree with your point. You've not won any argument points here, and won't admit to any of mine. How open of you!

And BTW, regarding a stressless experience in Kanada? Bull. My father.... well, apparently you didn't read or believe my post. Stress? Being left alone in pain for 7 hours just to have a urinary catheter CHANGED OUT? Not to mention the 8 HOUR WAIT FOR AN AMBULANCE in beautiful Burnaby, BC (a suburb of Vancouver) before he even GOT to the hospital. Nope, no stress there. Right again!

And how about the fact that we now know, courtesy of a friendly US (ex-Canuck, BTW) doctor, that my dad's need for that oh-so-lovely catheter was because of a surgical error on the part of the urologist who just cavalierly dismissed my questions about the sudden need for such a device, immediately following bladder surgery. How special for you proud Canadians.

Note: The Federal Minister of Health, in the '80s (can't remember his name) flew, on the government jet (i.e.: You paid!), to The Mayo Clinic in Rochester, NY, for his personal bypass surgery. Talk about going down the street!

Also, you get to suffer at the hands of a lax and inattentive medical profession. Apparently you didn't believe my examples. You assume I made 'em up, or perhaps you think such egregious lapses of behaviour (there. I spelled it right!) are made up.

Or you're just covering your ears and yelling "LaLaLa" as loud as you can.

I have a number of relatives in the USA and I have seen firsthand the stress that they are under due to healthcare concerns. Basic healthcare is a given in Canada. It isn't something you have to worry about. Despite its shortcomings, I would bet that the vast majority of Canadians would not trade it for the "the richer you are the better care you get" healthcare system of the USA.

I completely agreed with you. But I just prefer (am I allowed? guess not...The People's Socialist Court has decreed...) the better health technology always available in the US to government-mandated socialistic leveling of initiative and entrepreneurialism (a dirty word in Kanada I suppose...). Matter of fact, the ability to make a profit and out-compete your competitors generates the vastly superior technology available to US citizens. At even cheaper per-procedure rates.

Need an MRI here? In my little country town, population 11,000?? With the latest Sanyo Digital Open-Sided Imaging Unit? (Actualy, we have two...) About $650. In Vancouver General, using The People's Diesel-Powered Claustrophobia-Inducing MRI Machine? About $1200. In comperable dollars, BTW.

Waiting period in Vancouver? Months. And the difference in resolution, the ability to "build" a highly useful 3-D image? Well, actually they can't even do it on the VGH machine. So no comparison, right? Right? Right.

BTW, in Bellingham, WA, (which is just south of the US/Canadian border near Vancouver, B.C. ) the main hospital there (can't remember the name) sees, on a weekly basis, an endless influx of Canadians who come down there with serious cardiac problems. They prefer to pay some out of their own pocket (the BC Health Ins. Plan pays the same for a service there as they will for a similar procedure in BC.) The difference"? You get to LIVE as a result of your visit to the Bellingham hospital. Seems their reputation has preceded them, and why argue semantics when your life is at stake, after all?

And don't even get me started on what a complete insult the "maternity leave" is in the USA.....greatest nation on earth gives new parents a whopping six weeks of mat leave? Pathetic.

True. I don't want to get you started. You've already said enough. (BTW, my wife and I have had three pregnancies, one, botched in Vancouver [no stress there, no siree!] and two, successfully, in Californai. One even required newborn IC, which was like being on the bridge of the Starship Enterprise. In Vancouver, it was like being in a health clinic in the Northwest Territories. (I know; Nunavit...)

You don't want to get ME started, really. I just tried to be nice and offer some points. Someone suggested I'm jealous. HaHa! Now there's a bit of humor. Thanks! At least someone can smile in Kanada. Are you an ex-pat American, BTW?

I thought this was an open thread, but I see it's the usual Hate Americans Regardless tripe. Sorry I intruded on your self-love fest with a few what I innocently thought were just comparative and factual points. Don't blame the Avro Arrow debacle on me or America!

Have a nice day, but please, for your own sakes, don't get too sick up there! Because, here's another fact you are fully aware of but apparently just choose to ignore: your systems' bankrupt. Again, nice! Special. That's where I wanna be taken care of; in a bankrupt hospital! (Cleaned the MRSA around here recently? If so, why did my father subsequently become infected? I found out they couldn't afford the appropriate cleaning staff. Extra nice!)

Bye now.

(I knew there was a reason I couldn't stand their silly arrogance up there! So I just took my expensive education and left. Like so many Canadian doctors, tired of being underpaid and under-appreciated and under-provided for with the latest technologies...)

[thotful1]

Originally Posted by sunshineleith

I am sure there are pros and cons to every system. I'll keep ours.

It looks like you weren't all that interested in the cons, right?