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A sprained ankle should not cost more than 500 dollars in an American hospital.
That includes a doctor's diagnosis.
I wouldn't know how much it would cost - you may well be correct. The point is that he couldn't afford the money upfront. $500 to some people is like $5000 to others. Sad but true.
I remember the poor woman who came home from China to Toronto with SARS.
She died, but before she died she gave the virus to her 44 year-old son. Her son went to Scarborough Hospital where he layed on a gurney for 18-20 hours in an open observation ward before being seen by a doctor.
While he was lying there, he infected the man adjacent to him who then passed it to his wife. Both eventually died.
I remember the poor woman who came home from China to Toronto with SARS.
She died, but before she died she gave the virus to her 44 year-old son. Her son went to Scarborough Hospital where he layed on a gurney for 18-20 hours in an open observation ward before being seen by a doctor.
While he was lying there, he infected the man adjacent to him who then passed it to his wife. Both eventually died.
It was actually 16 hours. But it is still very sad. The longest I have ever waited in an ER was four hours, but it is more often a couple of hours - unless you are bleeding or having a heart attack -- in which case they rush you in.
The long waits in the ER is one of the symptoms of a "free" system - a lot of people do run to the ER unnecessarily with colds and sniffles and tie up the doctors and nurses who should be dedicated to seeing the severe acute cases.
In seeking solutions to these, where I live (New Brunswick), they have started a lot of "after hours" clinics, which seem to have alleviated the pressure on the hospital ER's. They also have "Tele-Care" which is great - you can call in and describe your symptoms and they will assess you over the phone and advise whether you should take an aspirin and go to bed or go to an after-hours clinic or the ER. It is particularly helpful for the people that tend to run to the doctor for everything.
Most Americans know only what they read in the US media.
So, Canadians, tell us how you feel about your provincial health plan (tell us which province), and whether you'd rather switch to a USA style coverage.
Americans, please do not use this thread to argue the point. Just listen to Canadians express how they feel.
http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/auto/chart-diagramme/stg2/c_1_7_4_1_eng.png?20081211190235202 (broken link)
Source: Statistics Canada. Patient satisfaction with any health care services received in past 12 months, by sex, household population aged 15 and over, Canada, provinces and territories, occasional (CANSIM Table 105-4080). Ottawa, Statistics Canada, 2006.
Hi. I am new here and just stumbled on this thread. I hope no one minds if I add my 2cents too.
I am both American and Canadian, currently living in the US, old enough to have lived in both countries for many years and used the medical facilities in both in various states and provinces, and I have relatives in both countries currently. I also go back and forth between the US and Canada frequently, primarily to see my father who, at 92, lives in Canada and gets what I would still call better health care than I do in the States where I pay a fortune.
The cost of healthcare in Canada is fairly stable for a citizen in that, though taxes can and do rise, they usually do not change astronomically from year to year. The cost of healthcare in the US more than amounts to the differences between tax rates, etc. and it is much more volatile. Today I may spend x percent of my income for healthcare .. but tomorrow it could cost me 4x (at the whim of insurance companies and uncovered add-on service costs, etc.). It is not anything I can control at all, other than by lowering my own coverage and/or dispensing with coverage entirely.
In the US, over the past 3 years, I have seen my services fall and my effective healthcare 'insurance' rate rise rapidly - more than 100 percent change in that time period, while my deductible also went up, co-pays went up, and at well over a $1000 per month for myself and my husband (with really NO health problems though we are 59 and 57 years old) we are scared to go to the doctor because, once there, even if nothing is wrong, any test, any bloodwork ordered, or even just walking in the door .. costs more. If we ever have to go to the hospital, I am petrified we will be gouged to the point of homelessness - even with our coverage, each visit could still cost us tens of thousands of dollars. And this fear is not good for my health!
I was in Canada a year ago and twisted my ankle. I called my US insurance company for 'approval' to go to the hospital for an assessment. They refused to give it .. told me to drive to the US for assessment and treatment or they would not say if they would pay (ummm ouch, and ummm, dangerous to drive with a very swollen gas pedal ankle for well over 140 miles to the nearest facility that would see me with the insurance company I use). I went to the local (Canadian) hospital where I was seen immediately, had x-rays taken, saw a doctor in no time (the lines in the ER were less than the last time I had to use a similar facility in the States btw). The only thing that was a problem was the cost - which my insurance company decided not to cover at all - and that cost was for 'administration'. The rest of the bill .. for the doctor and x-ray, etc. was incredibly inexpensive (all for less than $100). Taking my name and credit card however .. apparently costs $600!
During the Y2K era, I did a lot of work in the US with HMOs getting their facilities, people and machines ready for what was expected to be a problem if 'compliance' was not ascertained. That was right after I arrived in the US and I was astounded at what I learned about American healthcare practices, costs, responsibilities, organization, etc. I think that if Americans really truly understood their own healthcare system (something that government and healthcare insurance agencies do not want them to do), they would be very annoyed and would (one hopes) demand that things be fixed so that costs could be lowered .. and care would be better for everyone! The legal system here, which allows litigation for just about anything that 'might' have happened adds to the costs of healthcare and for doctors, to the cost of malpractice insurance. The 'coding system' is proprietary and allows insurance companies to deny payment for many things even if they are covered, or at the very least, delay payments to doctors which, in turn, forces doctors to live precariously without knowing if they will be paid in time to pay their own rent and salaries, to spend an inordinate amount of time and energy learning all the different insurance codes/systems/interfaces/billing methodologies etc. (instead of practicing medicine), and/or to lie to get paid and treatment for patients they care about. This system turns honest people into liars and thieves. Americans should be outraged and should march to stop this. I would hazard a guess that most doctors hate this system - except perhaps if they are in the kind of healthcare that is more cosmetic where they don't have to deal with insurance companies very much. However, the way they intend to 'implement' a new system down here will not work either because the people suggesting how to do that are not 'normal, ordinary, regular' people .. they are removed from reality and are way too political in nature.
On the other hand, we have a number of doctor friends in Canada too and I agree, doctors in Canada are not paid as highly as they should be. In the US, doctors can often afford glitzy digs and fancy equipment .. because they 'advertise' and/or are in, as I mentioned, the 'business' of making money through providing either costly services where the patient pays extra such as 'cosmetic surgery' .. or .. colonoscopies .. do you have a clue how much the latter costs even if you have the very best insurance? the last one I had cost me well over 6k and that was 8 years ago. It was a 15 minute procedure and not performed in a hospital. They nickel and dime'd me to death! People I didn't even know were involved in the procedure sent me bills .. and none of their supposed 'services' were ever covered it seems. None of this was told to me in advance and it surely is NOT in the ads on tv that constantly tell you to have these procedures and imply it is somehow inexpensive enough for everyone to have done.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch as they say .. in Canada .. my father, at age 87, talked to his doctor about not being able to keep his food down too well .. the next day he was taken in for a colonoscopy and when they discovered colon cancer .. he was rushed into full surgery and had half his bowel removed, was kept in hospital over a week and cared for well there .. then moved to another medical facility for further recovery. At 92, he is as well as I am .. just a little slower moving around. No charge. And no one gave him lesser service because he was older. But, of course, he paid into the Canadian tax system for years and years and still does .. to help support everyone getting that type of response and care.
Sorry for the length of this 'note'. There are good and bad things in both countries when it comes to healthcare but my considerable experience in both countries tells me .. you will pay the same amount if you don't get sick in either country (but have insurance) and a LOT more if you do get sick in the US .. and you cannot be guaranteed better or faster service here in the US, or worse/slower service in Canada either. A lot of doctors here (US) also have waiting lists or are not taking new patients. To get a first appointment with any doctor I have been to in the US has taken a minimum of 6 weeks .. how is that faster, better service?
Having lived in both countries, I can also tell you that it may sound as though the taxes are lower in the US .. but I have found that, making more down here, I had less disposable income at the end of the day than I did living in Canada making less. I wonder why that might be? Oh, and the food is better in Canada .. and surprisingly, I have found, often fresher and cheaper (for many types of things such as vegetables and cheese and lamb .. though not for chicken, butter, or ice cream).
As for having better stats in Canada .. for life expectancy .. folks, cold is better for you than heat is! More of the US is 'warmer' year round than most of Canada is - the stats for places like Wyoming, Minnesota vs those of across the border provinces would probably be comparable in terms of longevity, all else being equal. I think also that the fact that there are more poor and illegals in the US who don't go for proper prenatal care (something that I think more Canadian women do do because there is no reason not to when all are insured!) probably accounts for better stats in terms of birth survival, etc.
Luxury - you don't get that in Canada when speaking of medical services however competence I do think you get .. doctors who do stay and work in Canada even given the low pay do the best job they can because they love being doctors, not because they want to get rich. That is true of some US doctors too but not as many as in Canada (percentage-wise). Canadian doctors who cannot deal with the low pay (which, I DO believe should be higher but not because Canadians would get better care if it was .. but because the fee schedule really does force some doctors out of business - overhead is not easy to pay at the current rates even though Canadian doctors don't have the malpractice costs they would in the States) .. those doctors leave Canada and go to the US to make their fortunes. So do Canadian musicians and actors, etc. The grass is always greener, eh? Well .. not really .. but it often looks that way from the other side of the fence.
Anyway, in my opinion, there is no utopia on either side of the border. I don't think however that Canadians are told daily about America and its healthcare system what I do know Americans are told about Canada's healthcare system (when the American media even acknowledges there is a country past the end of the weather map!) and I know that, for the most part, what Americans believe about Canada and Canadian healthcare is often either wrong or grossly exaggerated. Hyperbole is a national sport in the US.
I have found being in the US one of the hardest things I have ever done in my life because everything here tends to be done or suggested to the 'extreme'. I will go back to Canada when I can but unfortunately the greed, politics and bad management of those in positions of power down here .. who have brought on this current depression ... are going to make that move more difficult for a while yet. I do know I will feel much more secure on many fronts back in Canada. Until I can afford to move again though .. I will continue to pay a fortune for healthcare I don't really need (but, if I quit paying and I DID need it in a hurry? ... well, all would from then on be completely out of my own pocket - I would not be able to ever get healthcare coverage again or if I could .. it would cost me the same as the national debt .. which is not funny right now!).
Rifleman .. sorry you are so grumpy. I agree with the others .. you do seem to be. That attitude of yours jumped right out at me, and it didn't sound very Canadian-like in spirit.
Oh .. and .. Canada is spelled Canada .. not Kanada, sir.
As for having better stats in Canada .. for life expectancy .. folks, cold is better for you than heat is! More of the US is 'warmer' year round than most of Canada is - the stats for places like Wyoming, Minnesota vs those of across the border provinces would probably be comparable in terms of longevity, all else being equal. I think also that the fact that there are more poor and illegals in the US who don't go for proper prenatal care (something that I think more Canadian women do do because there is no reason not to when all are insured!) probably accounts for better stats in terms of birth survival, etc.
Did a bit of research on this - Australia and Singapore have warmer climates and higher life expectancies than Canada and some colder countries have lower ones, so I don't think that climate is the key, but I think you may have hit the nail on the head with the proper prenatal care.
Sunshine .. you could well be right there. I said that because it is often said by northerners .. at least those I know.
But, then, from personal experience (admittedly influenced by the time in my particular life when I moved south of the border .. in fact, way south to Texas), I felt less well from the time I hit the hot climate than I ever had growing up in the cold. Perhaps one of the problems I had in TX was that rather than being outside a lot, I was, like many there, almost trapped indoors so I could live an air conditioned life. It is easier to put on heavier clothes and go outside during a Canadian winter - in fact, the cold is often celebrated up there with winter sports outdoors - than it is to remove even your skin to get cool during 10 months of the year down south. I can also vouch for the fact that it also takes years for a northerner to 'adjust' (some call it thinning the blood) to the high temps in the south.
I also know that I never in my life had any allergies .. till I moved to the US. Interestingly, when I was a child we moved to the Yukon and my mother who had had allergies in Ontario, suddenly did not up there. After 5 years she moved south again (in Canada) and never again had allergies as she had before .. I guess her system had a chance to 'heal' while in the far north. The air was cleaner and colder (killing off allergens during the winter) so even though that has nothing to do with 'length of life' perhaps, it does affect quality of life.
So, yes, I think there are many factors that contribute to life expectancy - some others of them being diet, 'medical care availability and quality' (which is the real topic of this thread), genetics, crowded population center disease transmission issues, air quality/pollution factors, stress, etc. It is difficult to know which, for any given person, is the most critical factor.
Australians often come from very hardy stock - prisoners who survived exile. Australia also has a semi-subsidized public/private healthcare system. Perhaps one could also relate beer consumption levels to longevity .. lol .. but that is another topic entirely!
Singaporians, whose very old society still has a diet that may help to contribute to their health (quite probably also mixed with some 'eastern' medical herbal/technique influences) also enjoy a very modern healthcare system .. and they have a very low birthrate too, as well as a very good infant mortality rate - from stronger children come stronger adults - more likely to live longer? Who knows.
I am in a more temperate area of the US now and get outside more so that is good for me .. and I like 'temperate' more than either heat or cold .. but I would/will still go back to the cold (whether or not that in itself would help or hurt me in terms of life expectancy) for the lower stress that comes with knowing that I will have better and cheaper 'access' to healthcare for the rest of my life - which I hope will be at least as long as my father's.
My mother by the way died in Ontario Canada at what I would call a young age (69) of mesothelioma. She never worked in any place where asbestos would have been a problem (did not work outside the home after marriage actually) .. but, we, as children, used asbestos as 'modelling clay' .. in the schools and we could buy it from the local hardware store for a few pennies a pound and bring it home. Her family history and lifestyle would have led one to believe she should have lived well into her 80s if not beyond. She also got excellent healthcare in Canada during her illness .. unfortunately, mesothelioma, is not survivable (yet). Her entire care (over a 4 year period, including hospice care) was 'free' too.
My 3 children were born in Canada .. I had a C-section for one of them .. never a bill. Friends of mine had a tragedy happen to them .. a child who got sick with meningitis at the age of sick and was drastically disabled after that .. he died at the age of 27. All his care was paid for by the government .. and he was hospitalized for years. Because of his good care and low cost to the family, the family was not ruined by another tragedy - losing their house or business or not being able to pay to raise their other child. As a taxpayer, I never minded helping to pay for his care .. and I benefitted myself when my mother was ill too of course, and for my father .. and myself over the years.
Anyway, again I am writing too much. I apologize .. there seems to be so much to say on this topic .. anecdotally at least. I think too many, across the world, much less in Canada and the US, don't really think much about the healthcare issue or its costs (both monetarily or otherwise) as long as they don't see direct hits to their pocketbooks that they can attribute to that area. And that, in itself, is a problem both for Americans who may be heavily subsidized either by government already or by the corporations they work for .. and for Canadians who pay taxes but don't really have any idea either of the costs associated with the care they take for granted. Talking about the realities on either side of the border .. is a good thing. Keep talking, folks.
Rifleman .. sorry you are so grumpy. I agree with the others .. you do seem to be. That attitude of yours jumped right out at me, and it didn't sound very Canadian-like in spirit.
Oh .. and .. Canada is spelled Canada .. not Kanada, sir.
Well, thanks, Aery. Since you made a comment about my attitude and posts, I'm assuming the mod will let me make some simple non-combative comments in response. Actually, in my very first post (which I hope you read, and not just the ones after I was openly insulted...),(and which I've gone back and looked at several times, looking for any pompous and nasty comments. None!), I only provided some admittedly graphic responses and comments on what I and my family and several of my friends have actually experienced in the Canadian health care system. I offered some factual, point by point notes about just where it's not as good as it could be. Never once did I claim that the US system is The Best (in fact, the opposite!), but surely some of the readers here can understand the areas where the US system is, yep, absolutely, better than in Canada. Then again, maybe not.
The OP asked Canadians, which I also am, what they thought about their health care system. I guess it was only supposed to be open to positive comments, yet I've also sen a few claiming the Canadian system sucks, etc.
I also happened to be in the position of having experienced good and bad in both systems, so could provide an educated experience and comments. I even referred to the US Corporate health care system as an "ugly greedy monster", and that our insurance was not transportable! But I also noted that my US health care, and that of my wife during pregnancies, was wonderful! That a problem for Canadian readers?
In the posts that followed my first one, I was told that the US system was "inhuman", that I was "jealous" and ranting and Canada-bashing. And that I was a "stereotypical pompous Yankee". Quite the pleasant little "debate", eh? I wonder how you and the others here would politely respond if you and they were similarly insulted?
The Canadian health care system in fact damaged or risked the health of all those people I mentioned, and, I say again, if any of you have ever gone to, for example, a Mayo Clinic, you know what I say about their fantastic level of care is true beyond belief. It cost me NOTHING to go there, BTW. My insurance covered it all.
My father, by comparison, had a pacemaker installed when it wasn't necessary, at St. Paul's in Vancouver, where he also contracted MRSA, and where they allow Davies Street druggies to overnight on cold nights, in the ER waiting room. All proven, and noted in a recent Vancouver Sun article. How nice for them!
But it seems some folks here, one in particular, didn't like to hear ANY criticisms from "some American", and even accused me of being partly responsible for the state of the Canadian health care system because I moved down here! This poster made all kinds of assumptions about me.! Wow Why I wonder? By this comment, she was tacitly admitting there ARE problems with it, which was my point in the beginning. And that's when I really unloaded, and that's pretty much what you read. And I only used the "K" spelling after the protester noted that he/she liked socialism. THAT was off-topic, BTW. I just noted that socialism brings (defines?) such government-run systems as national health care, and that it therefore has the problems associated with that idea.
I'm far from grumpy. Actually I'm quite a lighthearted guy. I'm just not trapped into being overly proud of a system that is known worldwide not only for being "free" (a falsity and all thinking Canadians know it) but also for having it's problems. As do all government run socialized medical systems. Ours, in the US, is far from being without problems. No-one EVER said that. W'll soon have our own version of socialized medicine, and we'll also get to see if some things go downhill. Wanna bet they do?
What's the right answer? I tried to make some suggestions, but again, it seems the bandwagon to "jump" on was me. It also points, wouldn't you agree, to the reaction of most Canadians to any criticism of their country by any American, about anything? In a post that was oddly deleted by the mod on another related thread, I actually pointed out the many many things where Canadians, in many areas of expertise, have excelled. I'm even proud of them. but my post was deleted because I noted, as well, that Americans similarly have a lot to be proud of. But I suppose that was not allowed... After all, it was a post about how Canadians felt about Americans and I shouldn't have presumed, eh? Even though I'm a Canuck... It was also odd was that a number of hostile posts by my "friend" from here, over on that thread, were not delted even though there were some unwarranted attacks on others by that person.... Hmm... I'm begining to feel like I'm part of an unloved society!
So, grumpy? Nope. Interested in intellectually honest open debate absesnt insulting, combative rancor? You bet. Incidentally, I also got a few very positive DMs about my original post on this very thread, and some advice to just ignore the rants of others. Which, since then, I've done. I said what I wanted to say, and perhaps some politely read it. I'm done here; said my piece. I still stand behind any of it, and if you care to examine my first post thoroughly plus what I claim about the Canadian health care system, by my first-hand experience, you'll also find it to be ALL true. Incontrovertibly.
Thanks again! Have a good day!
Last edited by rifleman; 03-05-2009 at 01:25 PM..
Reason: typos, clarifications
My experiences with the Canadian healthcare system:
In 1995 I had an asthma attack and went to the ER in Red Deer, Alberta. I was taken care of immediately, and treated with ventolin and oxygen - to excellent effect.
A few years ago, I needed hemorhoid surgery... the doctor did the surgery 3 days later.
Of course, I recieved no bills- not for the doctor, not for the lab, and not even for the hospital.
When I was in Las Vegas, and merely required a prescription renewal for my asthma medication, the clinics demanded my credit card before seeing the doctor and told me that the visit would cost between $275 - $400 (depending on what was done)... they knew that I just wanted a prescription renewal... what a ripoff. The US of A has a tremendous healthcare system... it's totally awesome... and also a collosal rip off.
Much has been said regarding Canada's higher level of taxation to finance its healthcare system, but one also has to consider that Canada has been running budget surpluses each year for about a decade, whereas the US has had budget deficits over that time... Any country can have low taxes if it is willing to run up huge deficits and mortgage its future... Canada just isn't one of them.
Last edited by Waterlooson; 03-08-2009 at 08:35 PM..
I have never ever had any problem with the healthcare system in Canada, I have never had to wait for long periods of time. I have never heard anyone complain about it actually (in real life because some of you guys seem to have some issues)
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