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How to Canadian cities stack up to U.S. cities in terms of being socially liberal. I know Canada is usually stereotyped as monolithically liberal/socialist, but i started to think if metropolitan areas such as Toronto, Montreal, Winnipeg and even Vancouver were maybe not as progressive as America's most liberal metros, San Francisco, Boston, NYC, Portland and Seattle.
If you were to list those American cities, plus Canada's major metros, from most liberal to least liberal, what would that list look like. And by liberal, i mean fully progressive (anti-gun, anti-SUV, pro-gay, pro-socialism, pro-muslim, pro-black, pro-atheism, pro-recreational drugs) ...i have heard that while a city like Montreal might have many socialist and sexually progressive tendencies, there is still quite a few roadblocks to be overcome before orthodox Jews and hijab-wearing Muslims are fully accepted.
First, let me say that it's going to be difficult to compare and contrast this in any meaningful way without this turning ugly or turning into a post of misinformation, mass generalizations, and assumptions.
Based on my experiences in Vancouver, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Boston, NYC and Montreal, I'd say that Canadian cities are typically equal to (if not more socially liberal than) your typical American city, if not only for the fact that the average American cities have a much higher percentage of religious folk living there than Canadian cities.
But remember - Canada and the USA have different histories and different demographics, and issues that are hot topics in the USA don't necessarily exist in Canada in the same way, or at all.
For example, Canadians living in cities don't think much about guns and aren't rallying about being anti-gun because we don't have an American NRA-style pro-gun opposite to fight. We're already by default a gun-controlled nation and we're happy that way. So that immediately influences our perspectives on guns, and it differentiates the Canadian cities from American cities. Guns are a part of the American identity. In Canada, they're not. They never have been. If you have a gun in Canada, chances are, you're living in a small town and you hunt. And if you're in Canada actively fighting for less gun control, you're in a very, very slim minority.
Likewise with "pro-atheism" - it's a term you don't really have here as most people in Canadian cities aren't religious. The "religious right wing" is a fringe minority and doesn't exist in Canada like it does in the USA. Even out in the smaller towns, religion plays a lesser role in the average Canadian's life. Even those who are religious in Canada rarely flaunt it - it's a private thing. So we don't have to come up with a name like "pro-athiesm" to oppose a growing population of religious fanatacism. Religion doesn't really come into play on a daily basis in Canada. Factoring in that Canadians are much less religious than the average American, and that we don't have the same Bible Belt w/ political sway that exists in the USA, this also sets the tone in Canadian cities which differentiates us from American cities.
Canada also doesn't have a "War on Drugs" so there's less overall fear when it comes to recreational drugs, so people just experiment and nobody really cares. Legal drinking age also varies across Canada, varying from 18 to 19. I believe it's still 21 in the USA.
Canada's politics aren't merely black and white "Liberal" vs. "Conservative" so you typically don't get the kind of dichotomies you do in the USA. I find Canadians are typically less devoted to national politics than your average American. You could argue there's a "live and let live" mentality here, but does that make Canadian cities more or less liberal?
So you can see, how do we measure this? Do we measure the differences with stats? Well, that's going to be hard - Canada and the USA measure their stats differently. So do we measure how liberal a city is based on views expressed in newspapers? Based on the experience of a Muslim in all those cities? Or a black person? An Asian person? Somebody with purple hair and a mohawk? Of somebody who's an activist? Do we count the subcultures that flourish in each city? By people's anecdotes on what they perceive? But perceptions aren't necessarily reality.
I mean, many Americans note that "real people" ride the buses in Canadian cities. "Real people" use public transit. What does this mean? Real people as in "normal" people? What does this indicate? I rode public transit with "real people" when I was in San Francisco, Boston, and NYC too.
I could also give a bunch of random examples, like Greenpeace and Adbusters were founded in Vancouver. Does that make it "more" or "less" socially liberal than, say, San Francisco? It has a huge gay population and Pride is the biggest event in the city. It has a huge Asian population. 67% of its population is non-religious. 50% of its population isn't white. In some suburbs, 70% of its population is Asian. It's had Asian populations since the 1880's when it was founded. It's home to David Suzuki. It's home to the idea of the "100 mile diet". which a lot of restaurants practice. It's home to many activist communities, community gardens, and businesses that promote sustainable practices. In the 1970's they banned freeways from being built. The mayor is the founder of Happy Planet! The BC Marijuana Party is a legitimate party, and most people smoke pot recreationally. 4:20 is a big public event downtown. Does this make Vancouver more or less liberal than San Francisco?
I'd say they're both on the same page when it comes to social liberalism, but there are always going to be inherent differences. But I honestly don't think you can really quantify it either... this is totally subjective.
Side note: You mentioned Montreal. I feel that in order to understand Montreal and the weirdness that goes on there, you have to understand its history, and you have to understand Quebec politics and how that plays into identity issues. Montreal has always been the most segregated city in Canada with a unique demographic and its own political issues overriding anything going out outside of Quebec. That's another topic entirely.
Last edited by Robynator; 11-19-2009 at 04:16 PM..
Another side note: Canadians don't see ourselves as a "socialist" country or a "pro-socialist" country. That's a label applied to Canada by the USA. Canada's not a socialist country... it's a capitalist country with a tad more socialist aspects than exists in the USA. American media like to paint things in black and white, but the reality is that we're all just shades of grey.
I agree with what Robynator said, and just as an aside, Montreal has a large and vibrant Orthodox Jewish community. Just ask anyone about Montreal Smoked Meat. mmmmmmmmmmmm
Every place has its historical hang-ups and baggage. In Montreal, it is mostly related to the French-English thing.
In the U.S., the main thing is obviously between whites and African-Americans. Many of the cities you named here as being liberal have relatively small African-American populations (Seattle, Portland, San Fran, Boston) by U.S. standards.
Now, the other city mentioned here, NYC, has a large African-American population that has a long-standing “national black elite†component and isn’t so dominated by descendants of the Great Migration as are the communities in Detroit, Cleveland and Baltimore.
In any event, getting back to Montreal and its allegedly selective liberalism...
If we take the language equation away, one thing I find is that liberals are always preoccupied with being liberal to communities who themselves can sometimes be very illiberal.
For example, the issues of Hassidic Jews and of Muslim women who cover their heads.
Now, I for one consider myself to be fairly liberal (I prefer the term “progressiveâ€, since liberal in Canada evokes a political party), and don’t really care how people want to dress for whatever reason.
However, if there is a perception outside Montreal and the province of Quebec that there are issues with these two groups, then perhaps a bit of background is necessary.
For example, I have no issue with the Hassidim (though I don’t think there are any in my city, which is in Quebec but two hours from Montreal), don’t have a problem with how they dress or even if they want to encircle the neighbourhood with a thin piece of fishing wire to make an eruv...
That said, a lot of their community practices do appear to be illiberal, but who am I to tell them how to live? Plenty of Christians are illiberal as well as we all know.
But where I (and most people in Quebec I would say) draw the line is in cases where the Hassidim complained that a private gym in their neighbourhood that has a window fronting on the street with women in spandex and other sportswear, and that that is offensive and provocative.
Now, in the case of the gym in Montreal, the Hassidim and the gym owners did come to an agreement under which the windows were made opaque. Of course, the gym can do what it wants with its windows and make deals with whomever it pleases, but I do have an issue if people want to say that seeing my wife or my daughters working out in a public place is offensive and provocative and should be hidden from view.
Another issue that came to the fore around the same time was the fact that certain communities that were Muslim (but not all Muslim communities, I must point out) had indicated to the Montreal police that they preferred to interact with male officers only.
Some police department officials admitted that male officers only were sometimes to deal with certain groups.
Once again, a cop is a cop, be they male or female, and I can’t accept the fact that someone who is sworn in in our society to do law enforcement work should be prevented from doing their job just because some people are uncomfortable dealing with women in positions of authority.
So if stuff like that makes other North Americans think people in Quebec are illiberal, then go right ahead and think that of us. But I don’t think we are going to change just because of what you think.
Just by default Canada has to be a more liberal society wherever you are in the country. You have universal health care which is liberal. You have anti hate laws which protects all minorities from the visious verbal attacks that are the norm in the USA. Our constitution protects the rights of individuals against an all power state much better than in the USA. The enemies of liberalism are largely shut up here not only by the law but because very few Canadians can stand their blustering bungle. Corporations and special interests don't rule the roost here but the will of the people is paramount. That is the definition of liberalism.
I haven't read the entire thread, but you can't just paint all these places with the same brush.
Places like Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Winnipeg, Montreal, Halifax are all VERY DIFFERENT from each other, never mind trying to perceive them as liberal cities compared to the US.
Vancouver to me is very similar in vibe to San Francisco, but it's not the same in terms of culture (it is Canada), and history. Other cities are not as "liberal" some are more so, some are less.
I haven't read the entire thread, but you can't just paint all these places with the same brush.
Places like Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Winnipeg, Montreal, Halifax are all VERY DIFFERENT from each other, never mind trying to perceive them as liberal cities compared to the US.
Vancouver to me is very similar in vibe to San Francisco, but it's not the same in terms of culture (it is Canada), and history. Other cities are not as "liberal" some are more so, some are less.
The "entire" thread is only a few posts long so it might be worth your while to read it. Robynator covered everything and quite beautifully. "Liberal" and "conservative" in the US sense are not issues here, not even in Winnipeg.
Factoring in that Canadians are much less religious than the average American . . .
That is rather inaccurate. The actual difference between the two countries (according to Nationmaster) is only 6%. In fact, 44% of Americans say they attend church regularly, as opposed to 38% of Canadians - so the majority in both countries are more or less non-religious (as far as church attendance is concerned anyways).
I think Canadians are just far less prone to tell other people what they should believe and have no interest who politicians are sleeping with.
We mind our own business and live our own lives - in that sense, we are more liberal - or perhaps more laissez-faire.
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Canadians are not "much less religious".
